Episode 286: Taking Action without Fear with Henry Holland
Henry Holland is an internationally renowned fashion designer, businessman, and founder of the global brand House of Holland. With more than 15 years’ experience in creating products for fashion and interiors, his journey to success began with the creation of statement shirts that quickly captured the attention of the fashion industry.
Henry believes strongly in authenticity and doing what you do best. He values building relationships with those around him – something he attributes to helping him develop his business to where it stands today. He also stresses the importance of failing often and taking action without fear; this mantra has been key in his journey so far, allowing him to experiment, grow, and pick himself up again when needed.
In this episode, Henry talks to Adam Stott about his start in the industry and how he has grown into such a successful global brand. He explains how having a creative mindset is essential but that it takes more than that to stay afloat – you have to be ready to take risks and have the courage to face failure along the way. Listen in to hear what Henry has learned from running his business!
Show Highlights:
- How Henry began his entrepreneurial journey without any prior business experience or knowledge
- The role of Henry’s mother had in developing his strong belief system
- What was it like to produce a well-received product pre-social media
- The importance of cashflow for a business
- The top marketing strategies Henry used for his businesses
- Building a brand as a creative
Links Mentioned:
Join the Ultimate Three Day Business Event and learn more Business Growth Secrets
Be part of our Facebook Group Big Business Events Members Network
Connect with me on Instagram @adamstottcoach
Transcript:
Please note this is a verbatim transcription from the original audio and therefore may include some minor grammatical errors.
Adam Stott:
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Business Growth Secrets. I’m really, really excited for today’s episode, I have a English fashion designer with me, Henry Holland, who’s run multiple businesses, including the fashion business House of Holland and the Henry Holland Studio as well which is his current business. Henry has been featured multiple times on national tv including Frock Me, the Changing Room, and many, many more shows. He’s built up a massive brand online on social media and has been really, really successful in getting his message across and at the same time using it to grow businesses in different industries. So I’m super excited to talk to Henry, hear about his journey. So welcome on. How you doing buddy? Things good?
Henry Holland:
Yeah, I’m good. Thank you. Thanks for the introduction. You made me sound quite impressive.
Adam Stott:
Well, there’s, you know, some, certainly some good achievements there and you’ve had a varied, varied career, which is awesome because, you know, there’s a lot of lessons in that being able to, you know, go from fashion to design and different areas, but, you know, really wanted to see where we started from and go all the way back to the beginning, Henry. And maybe talk about your first foray into getting into business and getting into your career. Where did everything start for you and what was the sort of challenges that you had at the beginning?
Henry Holland:
Yeah, sure. I mean, I guess in terms of my kinda business aspirations and you know, my starting into that field, they started when I was really quite young. I think I was 22 when I started House of Holland, and you know, full disclosure, I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. You know, I started that company almost because I recognized an opportunity of something that was happening and I really wanted to grasp that with both hands. And at the time I was working as a fashion editor of TEAM Magazine, so I dunno if anyone remember Smash Hits magazine but I was a fashion editor there when I was 21 which was the most fun and hilarious job I’ve ever had. Still, it was so much fun. I didn’t wanna leave it, but I started making some t-shirts as a bit of a side project and when I realized that there was an opportunity to build that into something more, I just went for it. I run with it. And that was sort of my approach to my first business I guess for the first I’d say even 5 years. You know the pace which things are happening, and you know, the kind of crazy nature of the fashion industry, and keep up with it really. But I did my best and in turn, I think what that created was a genuine authenticity to that business. You know, it was so reflective of me and my friends and, you know, the group of people around me because we were just doing what we do and that became a huge part of my business you know. There wasn’t a huge amount of strategic thinking involved in the early days you know. I think the first time I put together a business plan was when I applied for an award or a grant of some kind, or maybe later when I needed a loan from the bank. But the first few years it was literally fly by the seat of your pants and figure it out as you go along, learn by doing, which I truly feel is one of the best ways to learn in business. You know, I think there’s so many things that people especially in creative businesses could be taught before they, you know, leave certain educational institutions. But I think, however, once you try and teach someone, they’re only gonna learn. The true extent of it from doing it and getting it wrong and then not doing it again I think.
Adam Stott:
Yeah, absolutely. Failing forward as they say. So, you said that you spotted an opportunity for that business. What was the opportunity that you felt that you spotted and [03:55.2] towards that opportunity in order to be able to make that move? Because quite a big move to move from a magazine and a job that you love into starting that first business. So what did that opportunity look like to you and why was it something that you just had to do?
Henry Holland:
Yeah, well, I think I started making these t-shirts and they were so well received so quickly. You know, within six months I was stopped in some of the best stores around the world in Asia. I was in Barneys in New York, I was in Dove Street Market and Harvey Nichol’s in London, and I still was then going to work 9 to 5 at Smash Hits magazine and you know, I was just like, had no real concept of how big some of these opportunities were for me. In some ways, that was a blessing for sure. When they say ignorance is bliss, I think I really connect to that phase of my life. And I recognized the opportunity and that, you know, this was something that was, you know, taking on a life of its own. And if I didn’t really give it my full attention and give it the opportunity to realize every opportunity became my way, I might regret it and never wanted to do that. I think also being 22 years old and pretty fearless was a help. You know, I wasn’t supporting a family. You know, I had bills to pay and I had a route to keep up my own head, things like that. But I also was brought up by a mother who is huge in positive thinking and manifestation and, you know, see it, say it, believe it, it happens. So, you know, I had a certain belief system instilled in me from being a child that was essentially, you know, you can do anything you set your mind to. And I think all of those factors coming together you know, gave me the confidence or the arrogance or the ignorance, whichever one you wanna look at it.
Adam Stott:
Probably all three, right?
Henry Holland:
Probably, probably a bit of all three. To go forward and try out and give it a go. You know, I had no fashion training or qualifications. You know, for my first fashion show, I had an intern teach me how to cut certain pieces on my living room floor, but again, it was fake it till you make it, learn by doing you know, all of those things which played a factor into my business education and my training, you know. I trained myself in the bits that I needed to learn quicker than I trained myself in the other bit. You know, I didn’t need to put together a business plan and a strategy document in the early days because we were generating revenue and I had enough to grow the business organically and pay the bills.
Adam Stott:
Why was the product so well received? Looking back now with your experience now, why did you feel it was so well received?
Henry Holland:
In hindsight, it was a really clever idea. And in reality, it was a happy act that, you know, it was a set of circumstances. It was pre-social media. It was a time when the fashion industry didn’t have a sense of humor. It was a time when the fashion industry was still very closed off to the outside world. It was a very exclusive world and in that sense, exclusive also meant excluding of people. And what I was creating was something that referenced the high echelon of the fashion industry by referencing certain high-level fashion designers where usually you wouldn’t be able to buy into their brands for anything less than five, six hundred pounds. I was creating a T-shirt which referenced their work, showed you’re a fan of their work, showed that you were aware of what they did, but it was 50 pounds, you know. So, I essentially created the football shirt or the band t-shirt of the fashion industry. And it was, as I say something in hindsight, I’ve only learned that over many, many years of having conversations like this and being asked why it worked. And I think that’s it, really. I created something that created a fandom in the fashion world before, you know, before it’s time and you know. What I say, it was pre-social media. The first T-shirts I sold was a copy and pasted url paper link on my MySpace page, so anyone of a very specific age group will understand my references there. 35 and 40 don’t even know what MySpace is. And then I grew my brand online really significantly through Twitter and Instagram and different social feeds, but at the time it was before, you know, social media really took a hold and became the powerful business tool that it’s today.
Adam Stott:
Absolutely. And in terms of you, then had longevity in this business, so how did the business change as you were, cause you were in this for long time, right? So you created this great idea. As time went on, how did you look to build the brand, expand the brand, do things differently?
Henry Holland:
Yeah, I guess that was kind of the hardest part really was you know, trying to achieve longevity and trying to evolve with the industry and try and build a brand and an aesthetic off the back of one product. I think, you know, so often, in the fashion world that process happens in reverse. People spend their years really honing their craft, defining their aesthetic, working really carefully, you know, and their degree shows and create something that they want to say to the world. And then after many many years, that gets evolved and distilled, and then becomes something commercialized t-shirt with some branding on it. And I did that whole process in reverse. And so, my education was in the public eye, I guess, you know, my first three years of fashion shows. By the time most people had finished a full fashion education, 3 years in university, I don’t sit on fashion shows unscheduled on the fashion week. So, it’s quite a baptism of fire, but again, I had real life, I guess real life feedback, real-life analytics if you wanna go that, you know, deep into terminologies where I saw what worked, I saw my customers responded to, what they wanted to buy from me, how much they would spend, how much they wouldn’t spend. What was gonna work far as the business, you know, what categories I could expand into. I worked a lot with licensing the brand, you know, having a very distinct aesthetic from really, really early on which again allowed us to build the business without investment. We were completely independent in the first 12 years. And so, you know, so many things again, with hindsight, I can sit today and tell you they were really great business choices. And at the time they were gut instinct, things that felt right, things that felt I wanted to do you know, so many of the factors.
Adam Stott:
And I think that that is awesome because you can’t, the customer feedback and the feeling and being in front of the clients and going out there and speaking to them, you can’t beat that. You know, sitting in a bedroom, designing things, not knowing whether anyone would ever like it or not, it’s not the way. Right? I mean, if no one ever sees it, how do they know that no one ever likes him, right?
Henry Holland:
Yeah, I mean, there’s a huge part of that process which is really important to the industry, you know, in terms of like, this is a creative art form and like spending the time to really sit down and develop that, idea that and figure out who you are and what is it you’re gonna say is a really important part. I’m not detractive from any of that, but yes, I agree. You know the real-time data that you get from running a business and living it.
Adam Stott:
To move with the feedback just allows you to get results much, much quicker. So what were some of the biggest challenges across the, I think you said 14 years of running that business? Were there moments where you thought you were clinging on by your fingernails? Were there some stressful moments? Were there any bit, were there any things that, you know, would only moments where you were like, oh, I dunno, this is gonna work, you know, what were some of the sort of hairy moments for you during that journey?
Henry Holland:
Well, the answer is yes to all about once a month. I think the biggest challenge is cash flow. Always is. I think it always will be. You know, the nature of running, essentially when you’re running a fashion company, you’re running several businesses in tandem. You’re running a marketing business, you’re running a creative content agency, you’re running a manufacturing business and a distribution business. So you are buying in goods, then to manufacture them into your products, then you have to distribute them globally. You have to market them globally, you to spend, you know, marketing budgets both online and offline. Now that the industry has evolved and we worked so much more on social media, you create your own content to portray those ideas and share them. \You know, you don’t rely on press coverage. That evolution happen [12:38.0] working industry. And yeah, every single payday there’s an anxiety that you’re gonna make salary for everyone because, you know, do you pay, it’s a very, it’s a juggling app cause you’re paying for all your goods upfront before distributing them around the world and then waiting for your 30, 60 day payment terms you know. It’s like there is a gap you know. There’s a, the business model is, you know, a lot of people say the business model of wholesale is broken and there’s lots of challenges that it creates for any business. Yeah. I mean, dunno if anyone, any of the listeners or yourself have Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. Yeah. Amazing book. And I found it so comforting that even the founder of Nike thought he was gonna go under the week before he sold. I was like, you know, how ever big a business gets, there is always those moments of panic that you’re gonna get to the next quarter, that you’re gonna get to the next month. Because, unless, because by nature of being an entrepreneur and wanting to build something bigger, better, harder, stronger, faster, you know, all of those things that you have that are integral to being entrepreneurial in spirit mean that you’re always gonna push it to the limit of what your capabilities are and that includes flow and time. Time, energy, and hours of sleep, right? So, yeah.
Adam Stott:
I love the way you grow down the fashion business being distribution, manufacturing, marketing. One of the things that I, you know, train my clients on is really splitting the business into impact areas and understanding the impact and developing in each one of those impact areas, right? There’s certainly more simple businesses and probably easier businesses than fashion actually. You know, I think that fashion is a really challenging business, but it’s also very attractive for people, isn’t it? Because it’s got that creativity side of it, which is amazing as well. So, yeah, really interesting and it’s good for people to hear that. The challenges are there because within any success story, you’ve always got those challenges, and like you said with that big fan. So you obviously switched on to the marketing side. Why don’t we talk a little bit about the marketing side of that business? I understand the distribution, the manufacturing.
Henry Holland:
Yeah.
Adam Stott:
How did you see your job to market that business and did you lead that from the front? What sort of things did you do to really push the marketing forward in order to get that business more known?
Henry Holland:
I mean, full disclosure, in the early days, I was 22 and I was being invited to parties every night of the week and I went. And you know, I used to joke that it was the night shift because the people I would meet on the dance floor would be the people that would call me the next day to collaborate. The people that I would meet on the dance floor would be the people that three months down the line I’d interview for a job and would be an amazing addition to the team you know. There was a real sociable structure to the industry. You know, the way that the networking happens and the way I built the network around the brand was very much, you know, how I did that from the initial stages. You know, people got to know who I was from being featured in the media probably half the time the for nothing to do my fashion business. But you know, I was then able to utilize that profile to market my business to to new customers. But yeah, again, all of these things I learned in hindsight. At the time, I was probably an egotistical 22, 23-year-old who got invited to the exciting part. It was never a cons decision to use that as a business tool, but it was very much when I was able to capitalize on for sure. And then like, then later, I think, being a creative mind, I was very involved in the communication of the brand, the content creation, you know, the imagery that we created, the shows that we put on, how that tied into the storytelling behind the collections. You know, that’s what I love about fashion. It’s core is the characterization that it enables you to communicate. You know, you can tell somebody’s story from the outfit they wear. And that evolves out into, you know, all of the content that you generate around that collection. You know, I’m a journalism graduate so I guess that was what you know, my journalistic side came into it wanting to tell that story and weave that into everything that we did. And then later I became quite adept and an early adopter in marketing through social media because of my age group. I was, you know, the first generation to use social media as a genuine communication tool with my friends. And so I started to use Twitter in the exact same way that I would communicate with my friends, you know. And I built a really strong following on there. And I may, I know it’s very conscious and clear that you only market your business every 4 or 5 tweets. You know, you can’t be like, oh, buy a jumper, buy a jumper, buy a trouser, buy a jean. You’ve gotta be like, here’s what I had for lunch, here’s what I had for breakfast. This is who I was out last night, a pair of shoes and a new jumper.
Adam Stott:
Yeah.
Henry Holland:
So, you know, I think there’s been a full circle with social media on that especially in the way that they’ve now kinda, you know, manipulated the algorithms without standing on certain platforms. You know, it’s really important that you use social media for what people use it for outside of business tools, communication tools. And so it’s a window into people’s lives. And you have to use that whilst also marketing a product.
Adam Stott:
Which is amazing. And I love the piece about relationships actually. Because, you know, even if it was conscious or not conscious, you gotta be in the room to get the opportunity, right?
Henry Holland:
Yeah.
Adam Stott:
And if you’re in the room and you’re around the people, you’re building relationships with key people. It’s amazing how many business owners don’t do that. You know, one of the things [18:34.7] 70% of your time at the beginning on building relationships. Because you know, your new business, your new opportunities. It’s really, really interesting. So look…
Henry Holland:
Networking coffee mornings aren’t as exciting as the down [18:52.55].
Adam Stott:
Yeah, exactly. Tell me how you do it, right? Cause I met you out there talking to people. Conversations grow businesses. So, you obviously got really tuned in and attuned to branding and actually building that personal brand you know. I’ve seen, prior to the interview looking at your Wikipedia page, the press that you’ve done in the past, and it seems that you’ve built very strong brand also featuring on national TV multiple times. What was it about… again, was that something that you evolved into? Is there a point when you noticed, hey, look, if I do this and I promote me, this helps increase my sales, this brings me more opportunities, it gets me more meetings, it gets me more deals. What was it about the branding that, because obviously it’s something that you’ve pushed forward with and built a very good personal brand. How would you now look at your personal branding that you’ve built and reflect back on that?
Henry Holland:
It’s a really interesting question because I was really fortunate that so much of that came to my door and it wasn’t very active pursue and that sounds really conceited in some ways. But, you know, I was really fortunate in my friendship group, the people that I was around at the time all became quite well known in the public eye, you know. And I thought about this a lot, but we weren’t well known in the public eye before we were friends, but we all became in our respective industries quite well known and successful in our own environment. And so that really help propel that whole thing. And then yes, I was always very conscious that any press I did around myself was press for my business. I was always very conscious that, you know, a lot of the collaborations and the opportunities that came to my door because I could generate press. Because I was able to, you know, get the attention that those brands were looking for needed. And so I cultivated that and never shied away from it. I’m sure there was a massive amount of ego involved and I was happy to be written about and you know, [20:51.42]. Because you know, it’s human nature, I guess. But I was always very conscious. I would never turn down an opportunity. I was always very like, because I think partly there was a touch of imposter syndrome. The fact that I was astounded, constantly the people still wanted to talk to me and about my work you know. I still always thrilled and excited that people were interested in what I was doing, number one. Number two, I recognize it as an opportunity. Number three, sometimes it was a contractual obligation from a partnership I’d done and they had to fulfill certain number of major opportunities. And number four was probably, yeah, had an ego and it was nice to be to featured in a magazine, right?
Adam Stott:
Yeah.
Henry Holland:
I think they all play a part and I think it would be a [21:40.1] so that isn’t a factor that, you know, the human nature isn’t that it’s nice to be celebrated in certain ways.
Adam Stott:
How do you feel about media? How important would you say media is for a business owner? Growing, starting out.
Henry Holland:
Huge. In the businesses that I work in, it’s a huge part. Because you know, as you said, you know those people that sit in their bedrooms designing clothes that no one ever gets to see, there’s businesses that are designing collection of collection that don’t cut through because they don’t have that connection through the media or through social media or direct connection to their customers. They are not gonna get the showcase that they deserve and that they should because they don’t focus enough emphasis and time and energy on that media connection and that communication piece. I think you call it media, I call it communications I guess. Communicating what you’re doing is as important as what you’re doing. Otherwise you’re just doing it for yourself and no one else. So, you know that the way of communicating that now is multi-channel through like traditional media, print, radio, broadcast, or through social media, through in personal relationships and networking and building those connections so yeah, there’s so many different ways to do it. Having a big mouth and you know, being an oversharer with a Twitter account does not harm a business unless you are, have questionable views on funds.
Adam Stott:
Absolutely. So look, you then evolved outta the fashion business. You went on to sell that business, right? And you’ve gone into a new industry now. So what inspired that? How did that come about and how’s it been different as a, you know, from a business journey perspective, what have you noticed? The fashion industry and the industry you’re now.
Henry Holland:
Yeah. So I think, the big difference between the fashion world and the ceramics world, there’s a very different pace to life. And I think having a background in fashion and being bred to work like a, you know, a donkey or a horse, that you know, the pace for the fashion industry is known for being kind of you know, almost attainable. You know, we do like 10 collections a year. We market them, we sell them, we manufacture, we distribute them. It’s very hard to keep up. Whereas ceramics world is you know, you’ll do like one a year. So I also found a really nice niche somewhere in the middle where I’m probably a little bit faster than the ceramics world. But I’ve also managed to find a more attainable pace for myself. And how it came about, sorry, yeah, so how it came about is, you know, my fashion business failed in the pandemic and [24:22.35] by the brand. So I took some time out and I was trying to think about what I was gonna do. You know, and I’d had an amazing time with House of Holland and I didn’t have an [24:34.28] you know, I love every second of everything that I did. I was really proud of what I achieved and sure, there was you know, some disappointment and some feelings of failure from going through that process, but we were in the middle of a global pandemic and the whole world had gone to shit. So that was, luckily, you know, there was other things going on that, you know, made me realize that my life was far insignificant than the wider problems going on in the world. And so then, but then during that time, I realized that I really missed making things and having a creative outlet and put on you know, those two elements together. And so I started having ceramics class in the evenings. And then I used social media to put some of those pieces out into the world and they got really amazing feedback and I was like, I don’t know, maybe I could sell this. And my husband was like, why can’t you just have a hobby? Why does everything have to be a business? Why sell everything you ever do? I was like, well, because if people want it, who am I to tell them they can’t pay me for it? And so, you know, I think, and so I set up a website, I mean there was so many, you know, external factors as to why that process was able to happen so quickly. You know, I was locked in my house by myself and you know, I have all this time in my hands to be able to build a website and to launch all these things. So, I mean, during the pandemic I built three websites, I think. One for my company, one for my for myself, and I been doing consultancy work and another one just for fun. Then, I was able to kick in to like all of the sort of transferable skills, you know, starting a ceramics business and starting a fashion business in very different sectors, but the, you know, in essence they’re the same things. You know, it’s a distribution business, it’s a manufacturing and distribution business. I had to figure out how to manufacture ceramics and then I had to figure out how to distribute them to my customer base which I was building up through my social media channels and through my website. You know, and branding I recognize the importance for branding, developing a logo, developing an aesthetic. You know, I’m a very creative person to that part, I was able to do naturally. So yeah, it’s a very different world, but the transferable skills and also I think the confidence and the balls to be able to just go out and do it is off the back of the way that my fashion company started. You know, there was no strategy. There was no prearranged plan. I saw an opportunity, I recognized it, and I capitalized it on it, and I worked really hard at developing it and building on it and growing it. And I’m at that point now in the ceramics company which happened in a very similar way. I found something I love to do.
Adam Stott:
Yeah. So, sorry, the ceramics business is called Henry Holland Studio, yeah?
Henry Holland:
Yeah, yeah, that’s it.
Adam Stott:
Check it out. What’s unique about the product? What is it? Is it mainly the design Henry, that you come, I mean, the designs are fabulous.
Henry Holland:
Yeah, so I make tableware and I use a traditional technique on [27:48.3] which usually is kinda a technique that’s reserved for very kinda artisanal you know, craft people and artists and using that technique in something functional like tableware, like plates and balls and mugs and vases. I think it’s kinda, it’s something that hasn’t been done hugely before. And also in the color stories that I use and use in the colored clays that I use, I’ve managed to create quite a distinct look and feel with it.
Adam Stott:
Fabulous, fabulous. And look, the TV stuff as well which we’ve skipped over a little bit. I think we should have a conversation about all these TV shows you’ve done. You know, what’s the impact for you in that area in terms of your brand featuring on different shows, what have you seen when you’ve been able to get yourself out on to national TV and national media? How’s that affected things for you?
Henry Holland:
Well, it was always just a huge marketing thing really for me, and I was so integral to House of Holland and, you know, people would often credit House of Holland as being [28:51.88] and vice versa. They were kind of interchangeable myself in the business and that was, you know, being able to build my profile, I always saw as a way of being able to build the brand profile. And so, when I also, you know, when you’re running a fashion company, it is tough work. So when somebody offers you a handsome day rate to talk to a black box filled with wires and lense, it feels little bit like a day off when you’re not you know, filling out a VAT return, figuring out you know, your manufacturing costs and your bills for the next three to six months. You know, I always loved doing television. I find it really fun, find it really enjoyable. I often gotta work with friends of mine when I was doing it. And it was also a really great way of building my profile and then turn the brands profile. And yeah, and it was nice to be asked.
Adam Stott:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So look, in finishing off, it’s a, you know, an amazing story. Lots of years, decades in business. Lots of lessons along the way. Lots of great info. How can we condense that just into a few tips for the business owners that are listening? Maybe we look at, hey, what three things would you say to someone that’s in the startup phase, maybe, you know, been going in the business that you’re at. What would you say to them? Direct advice from Henry? What would your advice be? The most important things they could focus on and do?
Henry Holland:
You could have warned me about this one. I could prepped for that question. Fair enough. Fair enough. I would say, my first one would be feel the fear and do it anyway. There’s actually a book called that, which I think is amazing, but I think it applies so well to business strategy. I think, especially for people starting their own thing, it’s scary and it gets really petrifying at times and yet, It’s still the right thing to do. It’s important to know about. Another thing I would say is listen to your gut. I was very, again, it’s not very strategic thinking, but your gut instinct is really important. And you will have a second sense that you don’t always recognize. I think it’s important to recognize. And my third thing would be find something that you love first and pursue that as your business choice because you’re gonna be working 24 hours a day, seven days a week, whether your computer or your phone is on or off, your brain will be working 24/7. And if you’re working on something that doesn’t fill you with joy and passion, then you’re making a pretty miserable life for yourself.
Adam Stott: I love those three tips. I think they’re absolutely awesome, Henry. Where can people find you if they wanna come and follow? What’s the best social site for you? Would you say you [31:44.12]?
Henry Holland: Yeah, probably Instagram we use the most, and then I’m on there as Henry Holland, Henry Holland Studio, and then the website is henryhollandstudio.com.
Adam Stott: Fabulous. Well, thank you for coming on and being a guest. I think you give some amazing guidance, you know, really open conversation and I really enjoyed it. So big thank you to you and to all our listeners, you know, if you haven’t already, go and check out Henry. Go and check out Henry Holland on Instagram. And of course, if you haven’t already, for more awesome interviews like this, make sure to subscribe on your preferred listening choice. Apple iTunes, Spotify, wherever it might be. And I look forward to seeing you on the headset episode.