Episode 408: Scaling Your Business with Sarah Willingham

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A successful business often begins with a straightforward and scalable model. This approach provides clarity and direction, making businesses more adaptable and easier to replicate across different markets.

In this episode, Adam Stott is joined by Sarah Willingham, a seasoned entrepreneur and former Dragon’s Den investor. They dive into effective methods for scaling businesses while maintaining personal balance, and so much more.

As she navigated this path, Sarah mastered the intricacies of creating simple, replicable business models and understood the significance of aligning work with personal life goals. Her story is as much about building businesses as it is about crafting a fulfilling life, exemplifying her core belief in a life-path approach rather than a career-path approach.

Show Highlights:

• Effective business models are simple, replicable, and drive growth by keeping foundational processes straightforward.
• Prioritize life goals alongside business objectives to ensure well-rounded success and sustainability.
• Understanding and leveraging financial data is crucial for making informed business decisions and scaling efficiently.
• Hiring the right people and building a team that complements your skills is essential for business expansion.
• Be ready to adapt and change strategies as businesses grow and markets evolve, always keeping the core mission in focus.

Links Mentioned:

Get your Business Growth Secrets SUCCESS PLANNER for FREE and profit like a pro: https://adamstottplanner.com/free-book47315172

Adam’s website: https://adamstott.com/?el=Pod

Watch the Episode on Adam’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/adamstottcoach?el=Pod

Connect with Adam on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adamstottcoach/?el=Pod

Join Adam’s network on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-stott-coach/?el=Pod

Coaches, consultants, and business owners – lower your marketing costs, increase ticket prices, and get more high-ticket clients: https://3daybrandbuilderworkshop.com/start-here?el=Pod

Transcript:

Please note this is a verbatim transcription from the original audio and therefore may include some minor grammatical errors.

[00:00:00] Adam Stott: Hey everybody, Adam Stott here. Thanks for checking out my podcast, Business Growth Secrets. You’re absolutely in the right place. This podcast is going to reveal to you all of the secrets that you’ve been looking to discover. They’re going to allow you to cure your cash flow problems, attain more clients, bring in more leads for your business, and create systems and processes that give you the growth that you want.

[00:00:30] You are going to discover the business growth secrets you have been looking for. The I’ve used to sell over 50 million pounds worth of products and services on social media and help clients everywhere to grow their businesses on demand. So let’s get started on the business growth secrets podcast. I’m really pleased to bring on our next guest who’s made a massive, massive difference in, in my life.

[00:00:58] She has been someone that I’ve been working with now personally for the last year Three years, three and a half years directly coaching me. I meet up with her every single month or most months where we get together with her and her husband. We’ve deep dived on many different businesses. You know, she’s helped me to become a better business person.

[00:01:19] She’s helped me to understand how to grow and scale businesses better. Many of the lessons that I’ve shared. You know, obviously, I’ve had a lot of experience in building businesses and over many years, built multiple different businesses. But some of the fundamental principles from the last three and a half years she’s shared with me, I’ve been able to share with you.

[00:01:38] And she’s helped me to understand how to scale businesses better, how to make things more replicable and has made a massive, massive impact on my life. What I really love about our next guest is, you know, as a person. What a nice person she is. The first thing that I really admired about her when I met her was the fact that she’s run multiple businesses.

[00:02:01] She sold multiple businesses. She was a dragon on dragon’s den. Uh, she was on, uh, had a TV show on the restaurant, uh, as well, which was a really well received did amazing things there. Um, and she’s also been She’s a brilliant mom, a brilliant family woman, take six holidays a year, enjoys herself. I remember the first time I met, I’m like, how are you managing to do it all?

[00:02:28] And I was trying to get that out of her and trying to understand. And what she has is she has some very specific frameworks for building businesses. She shared them with me over the last three and a half years. I can honestly say she has had such an impact on me. She’s changed my life. And I really love having her.

[00:02:46] She’s been a guest at gold circle before, but she hasn’t been here for the last, probably 18 months. So many of you will be the first time mayor. Let’s give a huge round of applause and welcome to the one, the only Sarah Willingham. Thanks for being here again. And no, I think, you know, a lot of many, pretty much every single person in this room, uh, whether you know it or don’t know, it will have heard me speak about you at some point because I share the lessons that you’ve shared with me.

[00:03:14] You know, the things that you’ve done with me over the past three, three and a half years. And the ironic thing is that I met Sarah. Um, you know, the first thing we did was I interviewed her for my podcast. So when we talk about that strategy of showtime, having your own show, having something to people to invite on, that was how I met Sarah.

[00:03:35] Uh, we developed that relationship. She then come. Uh, to London to that event in London we did together and I remember watching you and I was like, how is this woman? So chilled and I think it was at a point where I was actually quite stressed out And and I was stressed out and she was so happy talking about all the holidays and all her businesses I remember asking you a question and I was like, well if you if you have a hundred bars Or whatever it was at the time or restaurants The question that I couldn’t get outta my head.

[00:04:04] How do you make sure that all the glasses are clean? That’s right. In all 100 bars. You

[00:04:09] Sarah Willingham: did, you did ask me that. I do remember you saying actually. Remember you asking me that? Yeah.

[00:04:14] Adam Stott: But, but the reason I asked that is because as I’ve scaled businesses and, and certainly I, you know, I said this as well, I, I think said it to you.

[00:04:22] I wish I’d have met you 15 years ago. Not four years ago, because if I’d met you 15 years ago, I’ll tell you what, we’d be cooking on gas even more, right? And, uh, and the reason I ask that question is because I’ve scaled businesses, but when you scale, you can’t scale mess. And I think in the past, I’ve tried to scale mess.

[00:04:42] And it ends up very messy. So I wanted to know that. And I’m like, how do we do that? So, obviously, I think it’d be great for you to, um, you know, tell us a bit about your background, Sarah, for people that it’s the first time meeting you. And then we’ll dive into some of those educational lessons that you shared with me.

[00:04:58] It’d be cool.

[00:05:00] Sarah Willingham: So, hello. very much for having me. Yeah, so I’ve, I mean, I’ve been working now with Adam for, sort of, what, three years. And, um, Yeah, I think we’ve uncovered a lot of stone. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve unturned a lot of stones during that time. It’s been brilliant and extremely rewarding because you can have a million conversations with anybody.

[00:05:19] And you know, you guys will have sit and done so much great stuff actually, um, today and being part of gold circle. But ultimately, unless you take action, let’s actually do something. It doesn’t really change because you can sit and listen. And that’s why Adam for me is one of the most rewarding people that I’ve ever met.

[00:05:37] I’ve ever worked with because we sit and have all these conversations, brain goes at a million miles an hour. We simplify it, structure it off. He goes and within about three days he’s done it all. It’s unbelievable. Never met anyone like it ever. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Anyway. So I’ll just tell you a little bit sort of about my journey.

[00:05:57] Um, I mean, I’ll say, I said to you, you’ve got to tell me when to stop. I will just sit here and talk now for the next 50 minutes or an hour. So, I’ve always loved business, just been fascinated by it. I love, um, seeing clarity and chaos. And I think it’s a, you know, if you ever talk about superpowers, um, there’s lots of things that I’m really not good at, but that’s definitely something I’m really good at.

[00:06:24] And it’s, it’s a superpower to be able to see all this mess in front of me, but to be able to structure it and to see the clarity of where it is. Where it is today and where it, where it could be in the future. And that’s, I think that’s one of the reasons why I love business, because to me, it’s always about solving a problem of how do you get it to the next stage?

[00:06:44] But one thing I’ve learned over the years is which bit of business Are you good at, and there are lots of different stages in businesses, you know, if you give me a blank sheet of paper, I will literally stare at it. Nothing will happen on that piece of paper, but you give me five bullet points and I will give you a book.

[00:07:04] You know, I can walk into a business or walk. I mean, a lot of the work that I’ve done is always being direct to consumer, but a lot of the, a lot of the businesses have been involved in it being hospitality. So using that as an example, I can walk into a restaurant or a bar and go. I know exactly how to have a hundred of these, but if you’d have given me the empty bar in the first place, I couldn’t have created that incredible magic that that person who, who’d whose bar I’d walked into had been able to do.

[00:07:36] And I think that’s really important to be able to know the stuff that you’re, you’re good at, stuff that you’re great at and the stuff that you’re not so good at. And I think very early on, I realized that I’m not that early stage person. I’m growth and I love growth. Um, and I was very lucky that in my twenties, I worked at, I was at Pizza Express and just learning, learning, learning, learning.

[00:08:03] And I loved it. It was one of the, it It was such a rewarding period of my life to that was like the benchmark really in my industry and I was very lucky to be surrounded by great people who were doing great things and to have the opportunity to see that to go. I have to learn what they do. And I actually shared an office in the end with the chief executive.

[00:08:28] And, I mean, I must have driven him mad. I saw him actually for the first time six months ago. And it’s the first time I’ve seen him for years and years and years. Um, and it was brilliant. I wanted to thank him. for basically teaching me so much of that foundation. But again, it’s about understanding that there’s an opportunity there in front of you and recognizing that and taking that opportunity.

[00:08:50] And during the course of that period of time in my twenties, I, God, it must’ve been 10 months, 12 months that I shared an office with him. I’d held all these people up on this pedestal thinking, God, they’re all so clever. And I just was like Sarah the Small from Stoke. I used to call myself at the time, you know, because I just thought, who, who the hell am I?

[00:09:14] And then I shared this office with him and I asked him all the questions. Why are you a public company? Where do you get your debt from? Why do you open where you open? How do you structure it? What is the business model? Why is this such a simple replicable business model? How have you created that? And I got underneath it all and was like, They’re not that smart.

[00:09:36] I totally get what they do. I actually get it. And there was a period in my life at the time, I was in my late twenties, and I was traveling all over the place, opening up pizza expresses all over the world. And I realized I can’t actually have this life if I wanted to be a mom, and it was something that was very important to me to be a mom.

[00:09:55] I hadn’t yet met my husband at the time, but, you know, always plan ahead. Um, And it was, I’d realized I needed to make a decision where I took control of my own diary. Actually, it was rather than my own destiny, my own diary, very important. And it was during the course of that year that I realized I understand what you do.

[00:10:20] And I need to change my life if I’m going to have the life that I want, because I really believe your career’s got to fall into place with your life. It’s life first, not career first. And it was then that I made the decision to go on my own. And that was the, that was really pivotal, pivotal moment in my life where I just went, right, if I’m going to control my own diary, I’ve got to do it myself.

[00:10:44] And that’s when I made the decision to become an entrepreneur. You know, I think for years didn’t call myself an entrepreneur because I didn’t create the first thing, but now I realized that I, I was, and I am. Um, yeah. And that was the first time I went on my own and then I was wanted to have the largest chain of Indian restaurants in the UK.

[00:11:01] That was. I was like, I can do to Indian food what Pizza Express have done to pizzas. And that’s what I went on and did. And I actually just copied what they had done. Like, because I understood that business model. I literally just, I mean, it’s all the same, all the business models. It’s all, it’s, it’s all so simple.

[00:11:20] It’s all the same. And that’s what I did. I just, I, I copied that business model.

[00:11:25] Adam Stott: Hey everyone, hope you’re enjoying the podcast. We’ve got a free training that I’m doing right now online from the comfort of your own home called Stand Out Brand. What this does is it shows business owners how to get noticed on social media, stand out.

[00:11:40] Get more leads and get more sales. So if you want to make more money in your business, head over to Adam stop. com forward slash SOB. That’s Adam stop. com forward slash SOB and join us on the free three day workshop, stand out brand. There’s so much to unpack on that a lot.

[00:12:01] Sarah Willingham: Can I not just keep talking?

[00:12:02] Adam Stott: Yeah, you can if you want, I was going to sort of say is, is the life path bit, you know, you said that to me, what do you actually want from your life rather than what you want from your business? We’re always, always like, well, what do I want from my business rather than what I want for my life? So you come at it from a different angle, which I think is really cool, which is one thing.

[00:12:22] And we were talking about. The simplicity of business models. And I actually, this is 100 percent that I learned this 100 percent from you, not from anyone else, all the other coaching I’ve done, all the other places I learned this a hundred percent from you keep the model simple, do it again and again and again and again and again, and again, and obviously you learned that from, from them, which is awesome.

[00:12:43] Pass that to me. Um, which has really helped me in a massive, massive way, but how does somebody, I think I’ve got so many questions, let’s start with the first question. Now that you know you’re not good with a blank sheet of paper, because there’ll be loads of people in this room that are like, I’m not good at that bit either.

[00:13:01] Or they’re like, I can create, but I can’t finish. Now, I am definitely, I can create. You can give me the blank sheet of paper, I’m good with it. You’re

[00:13:09] Sarah Willingham: brilliant.

[00:13:09] Adam Stott: But I ain’t good at finishing. Truthfully, you know, I have to get someone else to finish. So you have to Make of that what you will, right? Right, but you get what I’m saying.

[00:13:23] I can create, but I can’t finish. Seems like you can finish, but whatever. So when you look at that, how does someone manage that? Because for me, I find it really hard to go, I’m not good at that, I want to be good at it. So, now that you’re comfortable with that, how, how would someone in the room do that?

[00:13:41] Figure out what they’re good at, and what would you advise them? If someone was like you, what would you advise them to do?

[00:13:46] Sarah Willingham: Well, I think the first thing is work out what it is that you’re, you, you, not what you’re good at, actually, what you’re great at. And I think that’s, that there is a very important difference between good and great because we can all be good at lots of things and let’s all just say we won’t be in this room unless, unless you’re good at a lot of stuff, right?

[00:14:04] But you’ve got to be great at some things in order to excel. And there are, I believe everybody is great at stuff, by the way. Everybody in the world has things that they are great at. Often they just haven’t unlocked it yet, or haven’t recognized that. And they’re perhaps spending too much time in the stuff that they’re just good at.

[00:14:22] So find the thing that you’re really great at. And then I think, absolutely just chill out about the stuff that you’re not good at. It’s fine. It’s okay to not be good at everything. Because frankly, there aren’t enough hours in the day. To be good and great at everything and actually that is how you work yourself into an early grave if I’m being honest I think that’s where stress and anxiety comes into play when you you don’t accept that there’s stuff you’re not good at It’s all right.

[00:14:51] It’s fine But the best piece of advice I was ever given and it’s still the best piece of advice I give out is to surround yourself with brilliant people. It sounds like the most You Uninspiring, vanilla piece of advice. Don’t forget I’ve said it because I promise you, if you remember that every decision you make.

[00:15:14] It will be life changing. And that understanding of surrounding yourself with brilliant people is part of that self awareness of understanding the stuff that you’re not great at. What bit do I need? So, I know if I want to have the largest chain of Indian restaurants in the UK, that was my goal. I was never gonna get there.

[00:15:36] If I had to go and find a site, come up with a concept, what was the name? What was, what was the name of it going to be? What was the branding? Where was I going to get my customers from? What was the food going to be like? I, it would never, I would never have got off, off, off the starting block. It wouldn’t have happened.

[00:15:53] But what I was able to do was walk into a place in Southwest London and go, Oh my God. This is magic. And I know how to have loads of these. If I do this, this, this, and this, I know how I can have loads of them and keep the magic because you’ve got to keep the magic. We’ve all got different bits of magic and every business needs that.

[00:16:16] And I always do that because to me is what it is. It’s that little bit of magic. Um, and if I didn’t create the initial magic, I have to be very, very good. I have to be great. In fact, at keeping the magic and replicating it. So as I put in a structure, I can’t sanitize the business. Can’t make it sterile.

[00:16:37] I’ve got to make sure that I keep that alive. And in fact, give it an environment upon which it can actually thrive. What was the

[00:16:43] Adam Stott: magic in Bombay Bicycle Club, do you think?

[00:16:45] Sarah Willingham: So it was the, the food was exceptional. And actually what they had done is been able to take, so it was at a time when there were like 10, 000 Indian restaurants in the UK.

[00:17:01] So everybody. had an Indian restaurant that they loved on their corner, like the corner of their, their street. But what nobody had done is created. a brand that was synonymous with quality that was quirky and that people recognized as a safe bet. You know, it was an easy, it was an easy decision to make.

[00:17:26] And it felt to me that in a very fragmented market, if you could take something that had got that ability to become a brand. Something that people would recognize. It was the name Bombay Bicycle Club was really cool. I mean, there’s a band, somebody sent me a picture of somebody, they were drinking a Bombay Bicycle Club beer the other day.

[00:17:45] I was like, yeah, we nailed that branding. That was really good. And the band, the band named themselves after the, our restaurant. So we, the brand was great. The name was great. The food, was exceptional. Um, but there was no system. I mean, I, I remember standing there going, I don’t know how all these people are actually going to get their food tonight.

[00:18:09] You know, it was so unstructured. There was like no till system. It was pet, a little petty cash draw. The till was getting taken. The cash was getting taken home to put on somebody’s mantelpiece in the hope that maybe at some point, Couple of weeks later, it would get into the bank. I mean, there was no structure whatsoever But actually what was happening that night The demand that was there for it, but they couldn’t meet the demand There’s no way because it needed structure and processes and this gorgeous name that I I ended up buying it And raising money, because I’d learned that actually from the Pizza Express guys, I’d understood that it was really important to do the bit I do.

[00:18:51] You have to understand, understand how to finance it. Really important part of my learning. Um, and then I re branded it, kept it the same, kept Bombay Bicycle Club, kept the, I just, it just grew up, basically. But my strap line became Only Tell Your Best Friends. And that was because I’d seen this incredible magic where people were like, you know, I will wait two hours for my food on a Saturday night.

[00:19:20] Don’t tell anyone about this restaurant, you know, and I thought, God, what an amazing opportunity and that was really, we just built on that. That’s a brilliant,

[00:19:29] Adam Stott: brilliant line. We built on that. Yeah, brilliant line. I mean, you, you’ve talked to me a lot about, pretty much, I mean, if you’re, if you’re working with me in Inner Circle, you, you pretty much have, you’ve eaten Sarah’s brain.

[00:19:44] Right, truthfully, right, because I pulled a lot of the inner circle, especially out of your brain. So I want to talk about halo effects because you, you obviously understood branding and building a personal brand, but you, you were the one that introduced me to it as being the halo effects. And how would you describe that?

[00:20:03] You know, because what you’re really talking about is that I had the halo effect. I had a brand. You spotted that.

[00:20:08] Sarah Willingham: Yeah.

[00:20:09] Adam Stott: You know, would you, would you call it that?

[00:20:10] Sarah Willingham: Yes. Um, so do you mean, so I understand the question, right? Do you mean spotting that something has the ability to have actually building a

[00:20:21] Adam Stott: halo effect for a business?

[00:20:23] What would you say the important elements of building a good halo effect for the business or a personal brand are?

[00:20:28] Sarah Willingham: Yeah, I think, well, consistency. Yeah. is really important. Um, because unless you continue to say the same thing over and over again to the same, to that group of people, you know, it takes a lot for it to be heard.

[00:20:45] I mean, that’s digital marketing, right? That’s what we do. We hit them from all angles. It’s really important part of the model. And when I had the Bombay Bicycle Club, we didn’t have digital marketing. So I had to, I, it was in the days where you used to get a menu. Put through your door and I had to compete make sure so my menu was bright pink and longer than everybody else’s menu That was the only way I was going to stand out with 25 Deliveries that you’d had that day, but you know through your letterbox.

[00:21:13] It’s no different now whether you’re on Meta or yeah Whatever, whatever, however you are, you’re, you’re contacting your customers. So I think that’s really important, but I also think it’s the, it’s everything that goes around it. So when you talk about, I got a lot of PR, a lot of PR, and somebody once said to me, I’ve got to get, I’m gonna, I’ve got to make sure I get this right now.

[00:21:37] Try to explain to me the difference between PR, and advertising. I hope I get this right or else I’m going to look like such an idiot. Okay. Brace, brace. So PR is somebody who says that guy over there is really good in bed. I am.

[00:22:04] That guy over there is really good in bed. Marketing is When somebody comes up to you and says, you know what you need?

[00:22:16] You need that guy over there because he’s really good in bed.

[00:22:23] And advertising is that guy walking around going, just so you all know, I’m brilliant in bed.

[00:22:28] Adam Stott: And sales is proving it.

[00:22:33] Sarah Willingham: Implementation. Yeah. That’s delivery, right? Yeah,

[00:22:38] Adam Stott: exactly. Is that operations? Yeah,

[00:22:39] Sarah Willingham: yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I do actually think for the halo effect, you probably need all of them. Um, but the PR bit is really, really important that you’ve got people walking around, you know, you’ve saying that guy over there, he’s really good in bed.

[00:22:53] You know, that, I think that halo effect is really, really important for that.

[00:22:56] Adam Stott: And you mentioned on consistency and consistency of message, which there’s a lot of people being a lot, a lot of people in the room, a small businesses. They actually hate to say the same thing over and over again. Yeah. So they get worried about, Oh, I feel like I’m boring the audience and I want to say the same thing again, and I just feel like I’m saying the same thing.

[00:23:18] How many of you know someone that said that before? Raise your hands if you do. Okay. How many of you know someone personally? Right. So a few of you. So what do you think on, what would you say to that?

[00:23:31] Sarah Willingham: Yeah. And I, but I think that it’s a nuance, right? So it’s not actually saying the same words again. It’s the same message.

[00:23:39] There are lots and lots and lots of different ways of saying the same thing, but fundamentally and again, I come back to this structure underneath it is, it’s the model underneath. What is it that you need to deliver? What are you great at? How you frame that can be and should be done in lots and lots of different ways to get that sale.

[00:24:03] Or to get that person interested, lots of different ways. And you’re right, if you keep sending out the same advert time and time again, your audience will not notice it and they will switch off. But if you’re consistent in your messaging, it’s what are you trying to say underneath it, but just framing it different every time, I think is really important.

[00:24:24] It’s when people steer away from that, that, that consistency that is really tricky because one, the customer doesn’t know whether they’re coming or going. They didn’t know what you’re doing

[00:24:36] Adam Stott: for sure, and it is super important. I mean, one of the things that we’ve been talking about today is top of funnel and having that top of funnel, that consistent inquiry flow coming into the business.

[00:24:47] And when you look at that, obviously Bombay Bicycle Club, you also craft gym club, but you do a lot of ads for the bars, you know, um, that you have. In terms of the top of funnel, how do you explain that to how do you look at that in terms of driving inquiries in? What do you how do you? Really push to get your top of funnel running within a business or how important is it?

[00:25:11] Sarah Willingham: Well, the top of funnel is everything. It’s the start of everything. It’s the start of the whole flow of the, of the, almost the supply chain of a customer, really, of the life, lifespan of a customer. And you’ve got to keep filling that funnel. Now, how much you fill that funnel with? Is going to be related to your actual core business model.

[00:25:31] So if your customer is worth hundreds of thousands of pounds, you might, you won’t need as many in as if each customer is only worth pound. Obviously, that’s just basic maths, right? Um, so filling the funnel is really, really critical. And it’s where do you get, where do you get those people from? So when I look at an investment, for example, um, let’s say somebody walks into Dragon’s Den, how do you pick one is better than the other?

[00:25:58] So I would look at three things. This is relevant to the, the, the funnel question. Three things. So firstly, what are you selling? Link. And who are you selling it to? Like, why does somebody need what it is that you’re talking about? And who are, who are those people that need it? So when somebody walks in and goes, Oh, I’ve got a great idea, 8 billion people need it, you’re out.

[00:26:26] You’re never going to sell to 8 billion people. And the next bit, which is your funnel bit, is, okay, if that’s what you’re selling, and who you are trying to sell to, how do you communicate with them? That’s the funnel bit. And so that’s my second question. So I’ve got three questions that I ask when I’m looking at an investment.

[00:26:49] First one, second one is how do you now, now you’ve identified what and who now it’s how, how am I going to communicate with those people? And then the third one is why you, why are you great? You know, what makes you better than somebody else doing this business? So we look at the one in the middle is how that.

[00:27:11] Ability to fill the funnel is so fundamental in a business model that more often than not, it’s make or break. It’s, it’s the thing you’ve got to get right. How make or break is it? If you can’t fill the funnel, It is make or break. It is it because you have to know how you’re going to communicate with the people that you want to communicate with and that is basically filling the funnel.

[00:27:39] And of course, as I said, for every business, it’s different. Some customers might be worth hundreds of thousands, some might be worth one, and that’s the, but how do you do that? And does that model work? So for every pound that you spend. What are you getting back? You have to nail that middle bit. I think

[00:27:56] Adam Stott: that would be really interesting to explain that, uh, Sarah.

[00:27:58] So a lot of the work I did with you, getting really comfortable to scale, um, which we, we really have, was, was around, around that question and the timeline. So I think it’d be really cool for people to understand that. It’s for every pound you spend, what do you get back? How do you look at that? How does that, uh, How do you judge that on a business?

[00:28:19] Sarah Willingham: So it actually to begin with, and I don’t know how many people, I don’t know what stage people are at in their businesses, probably different stages. So to begin with, if you’ve not nailed that model yet, um, and you’re trying, that’s okay. And the beautiful thing often about a digital marketing model is that you can try it.

[00:28:40] You can, you can say, right, I’m gonna have 500 quid. And I’m not going to spend more than 500 quid. And I want to get X amount of customers in with this 500 quid. And you can try it, and then you can just switch it off. That didn’t work. Right. Try something else. That didn’t work. I mean, Adam’s the master at this.

[00:28:57] Actually, way better than I am at this, to be honest. Way better at implementing it. And, so, for every single pound that you spend, for that 500 pounds, What have I got back? Immediately in the customer, this is immediately in a customer base. What did I get back? Nothing. Right, next. What else worked? Try a different way of communicating.

[00:29:19] Try a different means of getting the customer in. But keep trying until you find the thing that works. Then go again. It’s not 500 quid this time, it’s a thousand pounds this time. Then 1500 quid. And you, you keep going, and at some point in the end, of course you will reach a point where it’s too much. And I remember talking to Nick Jenkins about this, he’s the founder of Moonpig, and, um, that’s exactly what he did with Moonpig, exactly that, he started off with a hundred quid.

[00:29:48] 200 quid, 500 quid, 1, 000 pounds, ends up with a million. And there is a tipping point at which it doesn’t work, right? So he starts, you start off online, and then he does a bit of TV advertising, and he goes in as cheap as he can. He goes, Oh, that worked. I can see the sales coming in. Goes again, and again, and again.

[00:30:09] And he always talks about how deep does the rabbit hole go. And you know, you put more and more and more money into it until at some point, There’s a tipping point and he was like, I reached the point of which I couldn’t spend any more money on TV advertising. But I mean, it was a big business by then, right?

[00:30:27] So he’d done really well at it. But it is so business critical to get this bit right and quite often you get lots of people who’ve got lots of great ideas of a business, but it’s like, yeah, but how? How are you going to sell it? How are you going to get your customers in? How are you going to fill that funnel?

[00:30:46] And every business is different, but the fundamental underlying business model actually is the same. And then you make it so simple and so replicable that you just do more and more and you keep trying a little bit more. And the one of the things I love about digital is you don’t actually waste that much money if you’re on it.

[00:31:06] You’ve got to be on it, and you’ve got to try it, and you’ve got to keep going, but you’ve, if you’re on it, you will not waste money, because you can turn it off really quickly and go again, but you’ve got to keep trying, because it’s a science, and the front end bit is the art. But it’s at the back end, but it’s the science.

[00:31:24] It’s so important.

[00:31:26] Adam Stott: Yeah. And I tried to get, I tried to get that message across continuously. You know, everyone would have heard me say messages around that, but I love you. I love for you to say that because people can see that and start to own that on the third thing. You said the why you bit.

[00:31:42] Sarah Willingham: Yeah.

[00:31:43] Adam Stott: When you talk about that.

[00:31:45] What is the why you that gets you to want to invest?

[00:31:51] Sarah Willingham: Yeah, so I think it’s a multiples. It’s a it is a it’s as like everything in life. It’s an alchemy, right? So it is a mix of stuff. So if it’s if it’s a particular business model that needs expertise. Then I’m like, okay, why, why you, why do you have this expertise?

[00:32:12] Or what in your previous life history and your experience makes me believe? Or, and you believe that you are going to be successful in this particular area. And more often than not, people are coming to the table actually with some form of expertise. But there’s another bit that is a bit more of a feeling often.

[00:32:38] And I, there’s a lot of, I speak to a lot of people about, Oh, I want to have my own business. I want to have my own business and I might spend half an hour to an hour with them and then I’m like, it’s not for you, love. It’s just, you know, you think, you know, one of the things you say, what

[00:32:58] Adam Stott: makes you say what are the traits?

[00:33:01] Sarah Willingham: So you’ve got to be eternally optimistic, right? There’s no doubt because it is not easy. And it’s quite lonely. And you’ve got to be self propelled. And I almost picture it like you’ve got a little jetpack with a little propeller on your back. And as you get into a little hole, No one can get you out of it.

[00:33:23] You might have people out, you might have managed to surround yourself with brilliant people and then that’s great. And in fact, if you have, you wouldn’t have fallen into the hole in the first place. But if you do fall in the hole, it’s all right, but your little propeller will go off and you’ll come back up again and you’ll just keep going and you’ll keep walking and you’ll think, right, next time I come across that hole, I don’t want to fall into it.

[00:33:41] And that, it’s so, it’s, you know, is this nurture, is this nature? Can you learn that? I’m not sure. You know, I think I do not

[00:33:54] Adam Stott: think it’s related to resilience and persistence.

[00:33:57] Sarah Willingham: Absolutely. Because I’ve fallen in a lot of

[00:33:59] Adam Stott: holes. Yeah, but I

[00:34:00] Sarah Willingham: also think you’re wired a lot, a lot of it. You’re wired that way. So I think you need to fall in a lot of holes and get back up.

[00:34:07] And if somebody helps you, that’s okay, but you’ve got to get back up. You’ve got to get on your feet. You’ve got to know how that feels to fall into a hole and get back up again. And there are some people that I meet and I think you’re never going to get out that hole. Yeah, there are some people who just don’t want to get out of the hole, and you see it.

[00:34:26] Have you been

[00:34:26] Adam Stott: in a situation where you’ve, where you’ve fallen in a hole, and you felt like you can’t get out of it, and you, you just felt defeated?

[00:34:33] Sarah Willingham: I am so ridiculously optimistic. It’s, it’s so stupid sometimes, because it’s totally misplaced at times. But like, I am, I’ve always got my, my propeller always goes off.

[00:34:48] She’s like, whatever, up, off, you know, I think when it doesn’t hurt me personally, like it’s different if it’s family and it’s very different, but with work, I’m like, I’m going to find another way. Have you

[00:34:59] Adam Stott: had one? Have you had one where you, where you, where you did feel,

[00:35:04] Sarah Willingham: um,

[00:35:04] Adam Stott: like, Oh,

[00:35:07] Sarah Willingham: well, yes, but I’m almost answering a slightly different question by saying this.

[00:35:15] I have walked away from a business that didn’t work. And I think that’s also very important. Um, I set up an online, um, like money saving website that was fine. It made a bit of money, but it was never going to be really successful. We never got the, we never, we never nailed it. The market was so saturated and we needed much deeper pockets to win on that funnel.

[00:35:43] Actually. The funnel didn’t work. And no matter which way we tried, we couldn’t get the funnel to work. And it was the right thing to do to walk away from that. Like, no question whatsoever, it was the right thing to do. And that’s also okay. It’s okay to go, Don’t work. Couldn’t get the middle bit right. And if you can’t get the middle bit right, not all businesses work.

[00:36:08] And not all business models work. And, Sometimes it’s easier to try something else and try and really struggle to find the business model in an, in an industry that it just doesn’t exist. It’s not there. It’s too saturated. It’s too, too expensive, too difficult. You need your pockets need to be too deep to make it work.

[00:36:28] So a business model that works. Yes. What

[00:36:32] Adam Stott: does that, that business model that works for you? What does that look like to you?

[00:36:37] Sarah Willingham: It’s really simple and I can explain it in like one sentence. So everybody in here who’s got a business needs to be able to explain what they do in 30 seconds. to us. Um, that’s replicable.

[00:36:54] That’s so simple, so beautiful, so clean, so uncomplicated.

[00:37:02] Adam Stott: And I actually think that having trained many thousands now since 2016, I think most people miss that. Most people overcomplicate, overthink. over detail, make their business models complex.

[00:37:20] Sarah Willingham: Yeah. So I, I mean, how, how many times, right? If you sat in a room and somebody’s tried to explain something to you and you thought, is that me?

[00:37:28] Like, am I really thick? But I just didn’t understand a word you just said. Like, and that, that has happened to me so many times over the years. And one of the greatest lessons I learned in life actually is, no, it’s not me. It isn’t. It’s them. It’s great, isn’t it? That’s what I mean, I’m eternally optimistic.

[00:37:52] Great. It’s not me. I’m not thick. No, but I did so many times. And it’s because people want to overcomplicate something because they want it to be complicated because they want to sound cleverer. But actually, all business models, no matter what you are doing, you should be able to break it down quite simply into a few sentences and be able to explain it to anybody.

[00:38:20] And I mean, anybody.

[00:38:22] Adam Stott: So if we test this out, so if we said, so if we said like crafting club, it’s an easy one. If you were explaining that business model to people here, That’s one of your businesses or one that you’re an investor in. What, what does that do?

[00:38:37] Sarah Willingham: I mean, that is a subscription. It is a subscription business model fundamentally.

[00:38:44] So we attract people through digital marketing mainly, but other sources of marketing now actually, um, as well, telephones and, you know, it’s how we fill the funnel, lots of people. We know exactly who the customer is. Exactly, um, who the customer is. And that is a subscription model. So you pay monthly or quarterly the same price and you get a box of posh, like a posh box of gin, posh tonics, posh snacks, posh magazine.

[00:39:17] It’s posh gin and tonic, basically. That’s it. That is it. And hundreds of thousands of them go out. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s the, the business model, the

[00:39:30] Adam Stott: customer, sir.

[00:39:31] Sarah Willingham: So the customer,

[00:39:37] Adam Stott: she don’t want to say alcoholic.

[00:39:41] Sarah Willingham: I know. Actually, do you know what my whole life I’ve had so much involvement with the alcohol industry that I’m like quite concerned about the macro that people are starting to drink less. I’m like, no,

[00:39:52] Adam Stott: don’t, I I was shocked when you ordered a whole glass of gin as well.

[00:39:59] Sarah Willingham: drink responsibly. Everybody. . Um, yeah. So, and the, the reason why craft gin is so simple is because each box is curated by the same team. It is. It’s curated in the same way every month, it’s just got different products. So logistically, supply chain wise, it is the same. Might be from Norway, might be from the Amazon, might be from South Africa, but actually the work that goes into it, the phone calls that need to be made, the emails that are sent.

[00:40:32] The deals that are done are identical, pretty much, every single month to fill that box. It is then shipped in exactly the same way every single month, on the same date every single month. It is shipped, it is stored in the same way. So the, the froof, the fluffy bit, the bit that changes all the time for the customer, is built on top of a really solid, uh, Model that is a machine that powers it.

[00:41:05] Hundreds of thousands go the same way. It, it’s, it’s powered in the same way. It’s the same. It’s the ach. The machine works in exactly the same way every single month. So if I look at my bars right, I’ve got 50 odd bars. They all look different. They’re all in different parts of the country. Um, so as a customer you wouldn’t necessarily own, know that I own that one, that one, and that one.

[00:41:28] They all look, they’re different and they’re different experiences, but the model underneath it is It’s just got a different sign on the front. I staff it in the same way. I pay the staff in the same way. It goes through the same payroll system. Um, I purchase the drinks in exactly the same way for all of the different bars.

[00:41:49] Yes, I might put a different, might the cocktail be different that you get in one bar than the other bar, or the beer might be different, but I’m purchasing it, buying it. And recording it and storing it in exactly the same way every month. My rent and rates as a proportion of my turnover are calculated in exactly the same way.

[00:42:07] So when I look through the P& L on each of these bars, every single month. The fundamental model is the same. So Bombay Bicycle Club, you know, whether you’ve got one or you’ve got 20 of them, the model that goes in underneath is the same. Now, the model on the day one, on the first one, there was no model.

[00:42:28] There’s no model at all. I mean, you know, the bottleneck, because it was in the, before Deliveroo and before, um, you’d order on the internet, the bottleneck was the phone lines. So if you were trying to get through on a Saturday, good luck, because there were only three phone lines going into the store. So I changed the model so that you could order in different ways at different times.

[00:42:51] So that no longer becomes a bottleneck. It’s like any supply chain. There’s always a bottleneck somewhere. So then the bottlenecks moves to the kitchen. So how do I make the kitchen a better model to be able to service that level of demand on a Saturday? And it’s the same in all 20 sites. You change the way that the food is prepped, the times that it’s prepped, the way that you buy the food, so that during seven o’clock and nine o’clock on a Saturday night when you’re doing 60 percent of your trade, your weekly trade, that is a very scary statistic, but painfully true, you’ve got to make sure you maximize it.

[00:43:31] And if you can’t do that unless you build on really solid foundations, and that’s why so often businesses, and you’ll find this, there’ll be a tipping point in your business where you’ve kind of grown, but not really built the model. So it’s a bit like you’ve built the house, but you didn’t, but you haven’t built the foundation.

[00:43:50] So if you’ve found something that’s worked right, and you’re selling more of, and it’s doing really well, quite often you just keep selling more and more of that without building the foundations underneath. At some point. Hurricane will come along and well, that house is gone because you didn’t build the foundations.

[00:44:07] So the model is the bit that keeps it really solid underneath. Now the business that I currently, um, my main business at the moment, Which is all these bars. I’ve bought businesses because remember I’m not the creator. So I’ve bought businesses to roll them out. So there was a point at which I bought, smashed together five businesses, frankly, and had the house, no foundation.

[00:44:33] So knowing that, I retrofit the foundation, basically. So I keep the house there, thinking, please, hurricane, just give me five months while I put the model in place. Now I have the model in place underneath the house, and I could buy 200 bars, 400 bars, in the next months, and honestly the house wouldn’t really flinch.

[00:45:05] But if I’d have bought two or four hundred bars 18 months ago, it would have, that would have been it. It would have completely fallen over because I didn’t have the model. The structure underneath it.

[00:45:17] Adam Stott: And I think that is fundamentally what Sarah’s definitely taught me. Because before I met Sarah, I built a very, very large business and had experienced hurricanes and they’re not nice.

[00:45:28] Right. You know, so I totally get that. And then what I learned from you. Really is to keep that model to keep building those foundations. Basically, I’ve met with Sarah every month and built a foundations pretty much or every other month sometimes. And, and you’ve helped me build the team, make the right hiring decisions, you know, bring in the right, uh, structures and, and really worked on that.

[00:45:47] It’s really important. For everyone that’s here, there’s many people that are an early stage. Sarah, there’s many that are not early stage and there, you know, there’s certainly this messages is driving home for those that are a bit bigger, which is awesome. But for those at the beginning, how do they start to discover their business model that can give them that?

[00:46:08] You know, that lift off. Do you think what would you look at if you were looking at their business model to try and make sure that they had a sound business model? What do you think?

[00:46:18] Sarah Willingham: Yeah, so I would. It’s kind of almost hard to do without the actual business to unpick. But, um, so You’ve got it very, very quickly.

[00:46:31] You can work out whether or not a business is modelable. Is that a word? Yeah, well done. for giving me that. Um, um, and that’s do the fundamental numbers work, right? So in, let’s not forget the, the, the filling the funnel for the, for a second, just fundamentally assume you fill. So start with assuming. You’ve got some sales in, right?

[00:47:03] Um, and you’re fulfilling those sales. You’ve got to fulfill those sales. Do the numbers work? At what point do the numbers work? Is it realistic that the numbers work? So, in a bar, for example, I might stand in front of a bar, an empty bar, that I might, that I might be buying or whatever, or actually one that I might want to open because I’ve got a brand that I want to put into it.

[00:47:27] And I can stand outside it, and I work out what the rent is, I know how much labor I’m gonna have to put in. I know how much it’s gonna cost me to make all the cocktails, because I know the basics. And I’ll stand in front and go, right, with all of those numbers, how much money do I need to take every week?

[00:47:47] And I’ll be like, 12 grand net, let’s say, out of that bar. And that’s, that’s before anything exciting happens. That’s before any more money comes in the bank. That’s literally just to pay my bills. I need to do 12 grand. And I think. Nah, I’m on the high street in Stoke. That ain’t going to happen. I’m from Stoke, so I can say that.

[00:48:09] That ain’t going to happen. And I think we’ll never do that here. So in order for me to make money, really, I need to be doing 15, 16 grand a week out of there. I’m like, how many cocktails do I need to sell to make that money? Work it out. And I go, No, I’m gonna walk away from the site. If the answer is yes, because I’m in middle of Manchester Happy days.

[00:48:33] I’m like, this is a 30 grand a week site. This is a 40 grand a week site if I do it, right I’m a break even solo 100 percent let’s go in and it’s the same in every other business. It’s the same in every other businesses. It’s just breaking it down to go, okay, what does great look like? Let’s start with what does great look like in your business?

[00:48:55] Imagine that picture it.

[00:48:57] Adam Stott: Can I jump in very quickly and ask another aspect? What if you don’t know what the car and I know the answer, but I want you, I want to see what you’d say, right? What if I don’t say the thing was you’re thinking we’ll find out

[00:49:16] Because someone could sit there and say yeah But I don’t know what they sell cocktail for and I don’t know how much the rents are and I don’t know how much the Rates are so how can I that could be their objection? So what what about if you sat there and you didn’t know those things? You What would you then do?

[00:49:31] Sarah Willingham: Well, you’ve got to know.

[00:49:32] Adam Stott: Yeah. So what would you do?

[00:49:33] Sarah Willingham: Find out. Yeah. Is that the right answer? And how would you find out? Well, I mean, there’s a couple of ways you can do it. So you can find out by asking people. Um, you can find out by, well, I’d ask somebody who’s in the same business as me, I would find out I would, I would knock on doors until I understand how I will actually, what I would do is I would start with who is already doing this and is great.

[00:50:02] Actually you’re very good at this and you’ve always been very good at this. What does great look like in my world? Who is nailing it? Who is brilliant at it? What are they doing that makes it brilliant and understand their business model? And then copy it. Just do it better.

[00:50:20] Adam Stott: Yeah, but that that is actually it, right?

[00:50:22] That’s it. Copy it and then the do it better. How do they then do it better?

[00:50:26] Sarah Willingham: Well, you will know because otherwise you wouldn’t be stuck. You wouldn’t want to go into that. You know, you, the reason why you’re even talking about being in that industry is you must have something that, you know, you, you’re good at and you must have something that makes you want to make a change or a tweak to something that other people already do.

[00:50:45] Um, yeah. And you go in and you analyze what the competition is doing. How can you make it better? But you have to stick to the model. That’s the thing. What if you’re terrible

[00:50:57] Adam Stott: at numbers and you hate numbers? Um,

[00:51:06] Sarah Willingham: yeah. So I can hear lots of people are saying hire an accountant and pay someone. You have got to learn to love your numbers. You’ve just got to learn to love your numbers. You can’t. Yes, you can hire an accountant. Yes, you can pay someone. But honestly, never ever trust somebody who is not as invested as you are in your own business when it comes to stuff like that, especially not at the start.

[00:51:30] You’ve got to know and love your numbers. Let’s be honest even no matter how rubbish you are at numbers It’s not that I mean, it’s it’s not that hard. Can’t be that many lines going into it that you can’t add it up It’s not you know,

[00:51:46] Adam Stott: how did you learn the numbers sir?

[00:51:48] Sarah Willingham: I Do you know what actually I learned to really love numbers during my 20s when I?

[00:51:55] was at Pizza Express and it was because I I, I have learned that through numbers I can read my business, um, and they became so critical to me that I, I learned to really love them. I learned to not want to do anything without them actually. And the reason why it was so important to a business like Pizza Express is that we had so many.

[00:52:22] You know, when I’d open them all over the world, you know, I can’t be in Malta, Moscow, Philadelphia, and London at the same time. So, you learn to love your numbers. And that taught me a lot, actually. It taught me to be able to read a P& L really quickly. I mean, I drive our finances. Team mad now because I’ve sat, actually when I’ve had my own business, I’ve sat where you guys are and you know, added it all up.

[00:52:51] And I know when something, I know that that’s, I know that site. I know it’s wrong. I know that number can’t be right and it’s important to know. You know, what should it look like? Don’t trust somebody else to, to put that together. They have, you know, help. Yes, get some help if you need it. But, my god, you’ve got to understand every line on that P& L.

[00:53:15] You’ve got to understand it. And you’ve got to learn to love it. Because, certainly, Certainly in the early days, it’s make or break, right? That the numbers have got to work. That is your model.

[00:53:27] Adam Stott: Yeah, I know, which is why I also asked the questions, because I think it is super important. So important. And you mentioned going out to these different sites.

[00:53:37] Um, there’s a couple of other things, two specific questions I want to ask. One is around fear of money. There’s a lot of people, um, that, I mean, this, everyone in this room has invested in themselves. Um, every, every person in this room has, has stepped up. That’s why they’re here. They’re getting education.

[00:53:57] Um, to go on, on the journey of becoming better, becoming more. So give yourselves a round of applause for that. I respect that 100%, right? But there are a lot of people Have fear around money. I actually read something. I know it sounds mad, but when being that we Spend so much time together anyway, but when I was putting together some of the photos I actually was actually reading some some different things And one of the things I read, uh, there was an article, because it was actually on your website, and you said, money doesn’t stay in my bank account very long.

[00:54:30] And there was a big picture of you laughing. I felt sorry for Michael in that moment, but LAUGHTER But, but the reason that I thought that was funny, actually made me laugh.

[00:54:41] Sarah Willingham: Yeah.

[00:54:41] Adam Stott: Because, you know, I think that is that entrepreneur, isn’t it? But when you’re not afraid of money, you tend to make a lot more of it.

[00:54:49] But when you are afraid of it, And there is a lot of people that are fearful in the early stages. How did you overcome that? Because especially if you were, you know, working at Pizza Express, high up, going around the world, closing things, you go off and start your own business. Did you have any fears around money?

[00:55:04] How did you manage that? And what, what would you say to people around that?

[00:55:07] Sarah Willingham: So people think that entrepreneurs are really big risk takers. Actually, we’re not. We’re very calculated. Very calculated risk takers, actually. And I think the most important thing at anybody, anybody who is, well actually, it’s not even business, it’s life in general.

[00:55:30] Any decision is, can I handle my downside? Because in all honesty, if you can’t, walk away. I actually walk away and I think that’s really important. So when I kind of say it doesn’t last long in my bank account and laugh, well, because I’ve never risked, I’ve never risked everything. I’ve not risked my kids.

[00:55:54] I’ve not risked the fundamentals, the thing that really mattered to me.

[00:55:59] Adam Stott: And you seem very patient as well.

[00:56:01] Sarah Willingham: I’m extremely impatient as you know, um, and I have a really low boredom threshold. So. You know, everything’s an opportunity. That’s also, I definitely

[00:56:12] Adam Stott: wanted to mention that as well. Cause there are loads of people here that have a low boredom threshold.

[00:56:19] There is no doubt. Who would agree with that? Literally, we talk about personality profiles and diamond, diamond personality profile. I definitely wanted to ask you about that because you are mega diamond. Like you are, you know, enthusiastic. You love holidays. You love traveling. You love doing things that are fun.

[00:56:36] You want to have fun. But how do you then, because when we talk about a simple replicable business model, um, Which we’re, you know, you build that some people can get to the point where they can get bored because they’re succeeding so much It just works. What do you think on that? How do you deal with that low?

[00:56:56] Threshold.

[00:56:56] Sarah Willingham: Yes. So I think there’s, so I, I personally define success when I’ve made myself redundant. Um, and that’s how I overcome the, the boredom threshold bit, because when I say you

[00:57:11] Adam Stott: make yourself redundant and now you’re redundant, you’ve got nothing to do.

[00:57:15] Sarah Willingham: Oh, you’ve always got something to do, haven’t you?

[00:57:16] Like it’s always loads to do. Do you not feel like that’s when

[00:57:17] Adam Stott: you get most bored?

[00:57:19] Sarah Willingham: No, because you always know when you’re on your way out anyway, you know, you know when and you never, you’re never completely redundant, but like redundant from the day to day, like success is. If you’ve built a structure and a model and a team that does all this stuff for you, and frankly, if you want to just swan around the world, you can.

[00:57:41] I mean, that’s the ultimate luxury. I think is to get that exactly. So that let’s, we’ve defined everybody’s ultimate luxury, right? It’s ought to be able to spend. To get up every morning and to spend the time exactly how you want to spend it, however that might be, right? It’s different for everybody.

[00:57:58] That’s, that’s the ultimate luxury. That’s the, the, the real gift we’ve got is our time. So it, to me, everything’s about return on time invested, not return on money invested. It’s return on time invested effort. Um, and yeah, I think as you, as you get towards that point where you’re starting to make yourself redundant, you When I free up my, my head and I empty my head of all the clutter that’s in it, which I do regularly, as you know, um, but as less comes in, because I’m starting to make myself redundant in a particular business or in a particular area.

[00:58:35] It’s so incredible what happens to your brain because you just become really creative. I don’t mean creative for me in the sense. I’m not, I’m still a blank sheet of paper, still looking at a blank sheet of paper, but all kinds of things. Some might be stuff I want to do with my life. It might be stuff I want to do with the business or another business or it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, It’s, it’s, you’re never bored.

[00:58:57] Never like just never bored. Well, I’m never bored. I don’t know. People who have a low boredom threshold and are constantly re energized and constantly full of looking at other opportunities and constantly creating, they will never be bored. On the contrary, their problem is, is not seeing clarity in the chaos that’s in their own mind.

[00:59:21] That’s, that’s much more likely to be the challenge of somebody with that profile, I think. No,

[00:59:27] Adam Stott: brilliant. Two, two more that I’ve got before we’re going to take it, because it’s really important. Uh, one of them that I want to ask you, which is Candid. Your candidness, you, you are able to, uh, deliver an iron fist with a velvet glove, which

[00:59:44] Sarah Willingham: I trust my team that I trust my team if I can.

[00:59:49] Adam Stott: No, but you, you’re nice, but you’re also tough. And that is not what most people see from an entrepreneur. You know, I, I certainly admired that about Sarah. When I met her, I’m like, she’s really nice, but she’s really tough. You know, start messing around, but you don’t have to be, you can be nice with it. And I think a lot of people who struggles to have those difficult chats with staff or difficult chats with people, raise your hands if you do.

[01:00:13] Yeah. Many of them do. And I think that I’d love to hear your take on that.

[01:00:18] Sarah Willingham: Yeah. And I, um, actually almost sadly, if I’ve had lots of those conversations over the last few years, since I started the latest business, because buying so many. Businesses, um, has meant and smashing them together and then kind of almost dissolving that structure.

[01:00:40] So now my model is I am a business that runs all these bars, not five businesses that runs all these bars. If you see if that makes sense, naturally, the people that come with you on day one, As you’re like hustling around and you know, it’s firefighting. There’s a lot of firefighting and it’s, there’s a lot of chaos.

[01:01:00] A very, very different than the people that you need even today where I’m, the foundations are in, they’re different people that build the foundations and maintain the foundations actually. Um, and then go on the next journey with you. And that, that involves a lot of very difficult decisions. I think a couple of things.

[01:01:20] Firstly, it’s important to always be kind. Um, very, very important, even when you’re, even if it’s, it’s not what somebody wants to hear. So even if it’s, even if it hurts them, you still need to be kind, but you must be, and I have learned this the hard way, you must be firm and consistent. And the reason I say that, the sense I’ve learned, I’ve learned it the hard way is emotionally it’s, they’re, they’re very difficult.

[01:01:53] They can often be very, very difficult conversations, whether it’s. It’s you giving feedback actually to somebody that you like, look, actually you could be doing a better job in the nicest possible way. Um, even if it’s that. You know, in those early days of a business, you are a family and it feels like a family and there is a point at which one of those family members or two or three, or frankly, all of them might not make it into the squad.

[01:02:28] And the reason I call it the squad is because what you need in the early days, this family is It’s people who can do a presentation with you and clean the toilets before they leave, you know, it’s it’s everything everybody’s hustling and Committed but as you get bigger and you put that structure in place I always talk about it as if we’re we’re a team now.

[01:02:51] We’re not a family and Some people don’t like the move to the team and it might not be for you. You know, that might be the point at which you sell your business, because it’s not for everybody this next bit. I then hire in different people, right? So I look at it and I think, right, I’ve got Ronaldo’s on the pitch.

[01:03:13] I’ve got Messi on the pitch. I can’t put the goalkeeper from Port Vale on.

[01:03:21] I can’t. It’s not right. Because we’re a team, right? But I love the guy from Port Vale. I love him. He’s been with me from day one. Somehow he’s made it to marketing director. I don’t know how, but he has because he’s been with me from day one. And at the beginning, I only needed the marketing director to post a few leaflets.

[01:03:42] That was it. And now we’re a massive business and I need him to really understand digital. And I need him to really understand creative. And I need him to run a really big team. And he can’t because he can’t delegate. Because actually it’s just this really great guy that wants to take it all on himself.

[01:03:57] And he’s now the bottleneck in the business. And I love him. Love him, but it’s not fair to Ronaldo and Messi, or him, actually, for them to play the A team in the Premier League. It’s not fair. So, I have to remember that I’m also accountable to Ronaldo and Messi, because I’ve hired them, and they’re bloody brilliant, and I’ve paid a lot of money for them, and they’re going to take the business to the next stage, and they are looking at me thinking, Who is the keeper from Port Vale?

[01:04:34] And what the hell is he doing on my pitch? So, be kind, but you’ve got to be realistic and ask yourself, am I putting the A team out now? Because what that family that you need at the beginning where everybody emotionally is really invested And it’s, there’s a lot of love in those rooms when you start a business, a lot and a lot of commitment.

[01:05:01] Those people are so precious, but they’re not all going to go with you to the next bit. And actually, sometimes it is kinder, actually, to have that really straight conversation and say, Couldn’t have done it without you, you were my ride or die, but you’re not riding to the next stage. It’s time to die. I mean, this is why I do these chats,

[01:05:27] Adam Stott: not Adam.

[01:05:28] Well, I actually think that you explained that beautifully. No, I think that that was a, uh, fantastic.

[01:05:37] And the last question I wanted to ask before we. We asked just one or two for the audience. Let me do some photos. Last one I wanted to ask is, is about family. Actually. Um, you know, I asked Michael, um, you, many of you met Michael a couple of months ago and he got asked the question from the audience actually.

[01:05:54] And they said, how do you, uh, How do you, how do you manage to manage your business and family life and, you know, get your children when, oh, I don’t know, ask Sarah. But he kind of dodged that one, which I’ve always, but I think from the moment I, I certainly met you is you, Um, we, we talked about life paths the very first time that I spent time with you.

[01:06:16] Um, we actually didn’t work on the business. We actually worked on, you know, what I wanted out of my life, how I wanted to see that, how I was going to structure my time, um, which is very important. And you, you know, funnily enough, me and Sasha was talking away here, and we were actually talking about work life balance.

[01:06:30] Sasha was like, it’s all about work life balance. And I went, no, it’s not. She went, well, you have plenty of work life balance. So she said to me, and, and I actually have now. Which I never did have, but that definitely has come from you. Um, and I’ve managed to get my time with Sammy, um, really because I struggled with it actually when I first met you and I, but I’ve really managed to prioritize that and get into a really good system, you know, where I have him on my, my Tuesdays.

[01:06:57] I have him on my weekends. Uh, you know, I spend loads of time with him. I don’t compromise that. And you definitely helped me put that at the front, which has been really valuable. So thank you for that. Can we just say well

[01:07:07] done?

[01:07:08] Adam Stott: Yeah, really. That was

[01:07:10] Sarah Willingham: not easy. Actually, for Adam, that is was not a natural default setting.

[01:07:13] And I’m and it’s amazing. Actually, that that you’ve done it really is really is amazing,

[01:07:19] Adam Stott: been really, really good. And I know that there’s a lot of people that have got children here that are building businesses that find that difficult at times. Um, I, you know, you are, um, you’re very modest, but, you know, certainly up there.

[01:07:33] As one of the most, um, successful female entrepreneurs in the UK. So I don’t think there is anyone better qualified really to talk about, you know, for children as well. And, and building businesses. Because a lot of people think, maybe I can’t do it because I’ve got children. Or they feel maybe I’m disadvantaged because I’ve got children.

[01:07:52] What would you say? Um, to that. How, you know, what advice could you give to people in that situation? I’m not sure, I know that not everyone feels like that by the way, but I know that some people do. So I just thought it’d be nice to, to ask that question.

[01:08:06] Sarah Willingham: It is important to acknowledge that not everybody think, feels like that actually.

[01:08:09] Because I’ve got friends that it was very much work first and there’s nothing wrong with that. Like there’s no, it’s whatever. whatever, whatever suits, suits you. But if you, if you do fall into that category where, I mean, I was, I really wanted to have kids, um, really, really wanted to be a mom and I wanted a big family.

[01:08:29] We managed to have a very big family very quickly. So I had four kids in four years, epic. Um, a lot, no twins. That actually is my biggest achievement ever. Um, but, so I think we, we talked about this when we first met. I, I, and I hinted on it when we, when I first sat down. I, I really don’t believe in a career path.

[01:08:58] Um, it just doesn’t work for me. I think we’ve got one life, right? And I think it’s a life path and, and whatever we choose to do with our work, um, has to fit into that. Now, part of that is money and it’s because we’ve decided whatever the number is, we need to earn this amount or make this amount over time.

[01:09:27] Um, to give us that life. And everybody’s numbers are different, and that’s okay. But actually, your career is a, is, is fulfilling that. And then, it’s fulfilling something in you where, You might want to achieve something. You might want to prove something. You might want to change something, innovate, impact.

[01:09:55] Whatever. We all have different things. Different boxes that we, that we tick. A career needs to, um, needs to fit in with that. So every business I’ve ever done has been very, very much driven by innovation. something personal in my life. And I think that’s why the jet propel is constantly recharged and is always going off.

[01:10:20] Um, for that very reason, because actually I’m doing this and it’s, it’s fitting, it’s fitting in with my life. It’s, I’m forcing it too. So every time I’ve got to do one of those difficult decisions in front of me, like, no, it’s not difficult. Is it, or is it not giving me more time at home? Um, Is it helping me on that particular path?

[01:10:44] And my kids are a bit older now. They’re all between 13 and 18. So it is, it’s different. I can have a different business. I can do different stuff. I can spend, go overnight in London and not worry about it. Would never have done that 15 years ago. Not never, that’s an exaggeration, but it wouldn’t have been a weekly event 15 it’s different.

[01:11:03] So like when I had the Bombay Bicycle Club, and I had many. My oldest during Bombay Bicycle Club, so I’ve got one came on a poose went everywhere with me did not matter at all We were floated we floated the business Floated another business actually that same year that’s a year. I met Michael That was when it was much easier to operate on the aim and market.

[01:11:28] You can’t do the same now it was much harder, but And that was really easy with one And then I had another one. I was like, Oh, this isn’t going to work. So I’d bring Monty with me doing whatever I was doing. And then, but left leaving a 15 month old baby at home. And I was like, this isn’t going to work.

[01:11:50] And within five months I said, I can’t do this. Can’t do it. I have to change my work to fit in with my life. It felt too much of a pull for me to It just didn’t in my tummy. It didn’t feel right and every single time i’ve made a decision. So when I left Pizza Express to have the Bombay Bicycle Club, it was because I couldn’t be doing three, three countries in one week.

[01:12:17] If I wanted to have a family, it just was never going to work. So I had to then, so then when I started my own business, I was all set up around the fact that I wanted to have a family. So I think because the decisions that I’ve made in, in my work life, And obviously it’s not as clean as this. Obviously I don’t get it right every time.

[01:12:37] Obviously I have months where I’m like, I’m totally out of sync and I need to readdress it. You know, so of course it’s not, I’m not selling a perfect story. Of course not. But fundamentally it was everything I’ve done at every stage has been set up for my life. You know, I didn’t, I wanted to know if my kids were ill, I could take them to the doctors that morning.

[01:13:01] It wasn’t, I wasn’t on somebody else’s, Time, somebody else’s agenda. I wanted to be able to take the kids’ holidays off. Someone needed to be able to work remotely if I could. You know, it was all these things that were really important. And it meant that every turn was always coming back to, is it, is it fulfilling what I need?

[01:13:25] And we used to, I’ve talked to you before about pie chart. That might take too long to talk about the pie chart. Do you want me to talk about it? No. I was good, but it’s how I split up my time. Yeah, I mean,

[01:13:35] Adam Stott: certainly, certainly tell them, I think so. So,

[01:13:38] Sarah Willingham: we used to, we don’t so much anymore. This makes me and Michael sound really boring.

[01:13:42] I promise we’re not, we’re really rock and roll. We’re really fun. But we used to, um, When we couldn’t get our time right, cause to us it was all about time, and work fell into that. We used to, at the beginning of every single year, we used to do a pie chart of our time. Sounds really boring, but it was, I made Adam do it, really early on.

[01:14:04] He was like, what are you talking about?

[01:14:06] Adam Stott: I actually found it really useful. We found it really useful. Who’s in Thailand with me? Was anyone in Thailand? Yeah, okay, so Inga and Pete and Sue, I did that in Thailand, do you remember? I made them do it.

[01:14:15] Sarah Willingham: It’s brilliant. Honestly, it works so well for us. So you would do a pie chart, right, of your time.

[01:14:23] So it’s a circle, dead easy. I’ll draw it because it’s, because then it looks like I’m being interactive. So then

[01:14:32] I’d go

[01:14:34] Sarah Willingham: like, depending on where you are in your life, I’d be like family.

[01:14:45] Let’s say I want to travel. That’s That can be different, larger or smaller depending on who you are, where you are in your kid’s life. Um, I wanted to travel, still do, ended up taking my kids out of school actually, and went travelling for three years. Um, best thing I’ve ever done, but we’re not here to talk about that.

[01:15:07] Um, so that was travel here. And then I wanted to exercise. I wanted to, I don’t know, read more, see my mates. And I’d keep going round and they’d be like, Oh shit, I haven’t worked yet. So I’d be literally, I’d like, we’d do the pie chart and then we’d be like, Oh, right. Okay. Work. Well, that isn’t going to work, is it?

[01:15:32] Because, actually, in order to pay for all of that, I’ve got to earn more. So, suddenly, you’re like, okay, you get a rubber out, you’re like, uh, we’ll see if we can just put work into there. And what happens ultimately is the beauty of doing it, the thing that worked for us is that we realized the relativity of time.

[01:15:54] Everything that we did was relative to something else on the pie chart, and that’s why it worked for us. And so we did this for years and years. It’s now much more instinctive, but we did it for such a long time because we realized that if we did more work, let’s say. You know, you say, I’m only going to do this.

[01:16:18] I’m going to make sure I always take a Friday off. I’m always there on a Monday morning or whatever it might be. And then that’s, that you get creep in your work life, which we all do. And suddenly you are working every Friday. What’s giving? Because this is a circle. So if you’re starting to work every Friday when you’ve promised yourself you’re not, what are you taking from?

[01:16:41] It’s fine, but make a conscious decision. Are you taking it from your family? Have you told them? Hmm. Are you going to not go on holiday this year? Does your partner know? Do you know? Are you not going to exercise? Not great. You know, where does it come from? Basically, ultimately, they’re the hours you’ve got in the day, the week, the year.

[01:17:04] And so when you do make a decision one way or the other, It impacts you, and if you can become more efficient in work, so make yourself more redundant, which is much more efficient, so the business still does as well, you do less, you’re gaining. So what are you going to gain? More family time, you can do more exercise, and go travelling more, all these things, it really helped me to, to see the impact.

[01:17:33] Adam Stott: The bigger picture.

[01:17:34] Sarah Willingham: Of my time, of the decisions that I make, um, based around my time. And that worked really, really well for me. And that I think helped me, but it was always, also, it was always my priority was, well, it’s actually, my priority wasn’t just the family. It was, it was to get the blend right. And that’s hard to do.

[01:17:55] And we don’t always get it right. We still mess it up, of course, and we haven’t always got it right. Um, but if we do get it wrong for a long period of time, we, we counterbalance it by doing something epic, like we went, you know, we go traveling or really hard rules on something. You suddenly put firm boundaries down firm and say, no, I’m going to change this.

[01:18:19] We have to counterbalance it because we’ve been out of sync for so long.

[01:18:22] Adam Stott: Brilliant.

[01:18:24] Sarah Willingham: I told you I talked too much.

[01:18:25] Adam Stott: No, no, no. Amazing. Look, it’s Sarah Been Amazing, everybody. Give it up.