The CEO Mindset Every Business Owner Needs: Jeannette Linfoot
The Business Growth Secrets podcast with Adam Stott and Jeanette Linfoot.
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What actually makes a great CEO, and does it change when you go from leading 10,000 people to leading five?
Jeannette Linfoot spent 25 years climbing from graduate trainee to CEO of Saga’s travel division and Managing Director of Emerging Markets at TUI, before leaving the boardroom to found Brave Bold Brilliant and host the Rise Up Academy podcast.
She breaks down the leadership lessons, hard calls and mindset shifts from both sides of the desk.
She explains:
– Why she spent years telling herself “I’m not entrepreneurial” – and why that inner voice was rubbish
– Why a leader needs to be like a helicopter: hovering above the business, knowing exactly when to land
– Why letting go of the tasks you hate is the easiest way to start delegating
Chapters:
00:00:00 Intro
0:00:48 Who Is Jeannette Linfoot?
00:01:39 Growing Up In Manchester And Studying Economics
00:02:33 Graduating Into A Recession And Getting Rejected By Everyone
00:03:08 Landing A Graduate Role At Thomson Holidays
00:03:56 Becoming CEO Of Saga’s Travel Division
00:05:03 Working Her Way Up To The Top
00:06:07 Why Travel Is A Brutally Low-Margin Industry
00:08:25 The Turning Point To Leave Corporate Life
00:10:28 Proving She Could Succeed Outside The Boardroom
00:11:11 What Makes A Great CEO
00:13:02 Leading From Having Started At The Bottom
00:14:04 “Mowing The Lawn”: Making The Hard Cost-Cutting Calls
00:16:41 How Her Economics Degree Shaped Her Business Thinking
00:18:15 Why Business Is Personal
00:20:01 From Corporate Advisor To Accidental Entrepreneur
00:20:59 When Covid Wiped Out Her Income Overnight
00:22:05 How Brave Bold Brilliant Got Its Name
00:23:17 What Podcasting Has Done For Her Business
00:26:50 Jeannette’s Leadership Philosophy
00:27:36 The Helicopter Theory Of Leadership
00:29:37 Leading 10,000 People vs Leading A Team Of Five
00:30:23 The Reality Of Losing The Corporate Brand Behind You
00:33:19 Silencing The “I’m Not Entrepreneurial” Inner Gremlin
00:33:57 Why Entrepreneurship Isn’t For Everyone
00:37:27 How To Let Go And Start Delegating
00:39:20 The Hourly Rate Test For What You Should Stop Doing
00:40:02 Leading A Perfectionist Who Won’t Let Go
00:42:16 Managing A High Performer With Toxic Habits
00:44:56 The Three Phases Of Business Growth
00:46:35 The Nine-Box Talent Matrix
00:47:55 Building A Succession Plan For Every Role
00:48:37 Three Pieces Of Advice For New Leaders
00:52:23 Quick Fire: Best Tip For Strategy
00:53:31 Quick Fire: Best Tip For Branding
00:54:14 Quick Fire: Best Tip For Marketing
00:54:35 Quick Fire: Best Tip For Sales
00:55:25 Quick Fire: Best Tip For Operations
00:56:30 Who She’d Choose To Run Brave Bold Brilliant
00:57:57 Where To Find Jeannette Linfoot
Jeannette Linfoot:
LinkedIn: Jeannette Linfoot
Brave Bold Brilliant: Brave Bold Brilliant
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The following is a verbatim copy of the episode transcript and may contain some grammatical errors.
Well, huge welcome to Janette Linford from brave bold, brilliant has an incredible business training entrepreneurs, leaders. Her Rise Up Academy has an awesome podcast as well. And he joining me today. So all things business and success. So first of all for everyone seeing you for the first time Jeanette. Tell us who you are, what you do and what is your superpower.
Oh, I love that. Well, thank you for having me on. First of all, Adam, it’s a pleasure to be here. So, you know, essentially, I have spent 25 years in the corporate world. So I guess I’m a corporate CEO turned entrepreneur. So I’m a multiple business owner, investor, coach, advisor, founder of brave, bold, brilliant. And my superpower is belief.
Okay. And maybe we’ll get into that a little bit later. But I genuinely believe that everyone has greatness in them. But it’s not always easy to unlock that on your own. So everything that I do, the team does, everything that drives me really is to help leaders, teams and businesses really step up to that next level. So it’s all about growth and scale and keeping it real because I am a man, as you can tell.
So there we are. That’s a little bit about me. But yeah. Working class girl done all right in business. Well certainly from a business perspective. Business journey. How did you get into business? You had a corporate career. Where did your first business full Ray come from? What did you do? Tell us all about your journey. Yeah, well, I mean, I grew up in Manchester, the youngest of three daughters.
A very happy family life, you know, but quite a simple, you know, sort of environment. I was the only one to go to university, and I was always a little bit of a bit of a geek. You know, I like school. I shouldn’t admit it, really, but I was pretty good at school and I was the only one to go to university.
So I did an economics degree and I just loved the topic. To be honest, I didn’t really think, oh, you know, I had this big plan of getting into business necessarily, but I did an economics degree and I came up with the first, so I did all right. But I graduated in 93, and it was a big recession going on then.
And I remember applying for, I mean, literally hundreds of jobs and just getting knocked back after knock back. Even Rugby Cement didn’t want me on there. Graduate scheme. McCain oven chips rejected me. I mean, really? Absolutely. So, you know, it was a hard time, but essentially I just did anything to make money. I was waiting tables in Debenhams.
I was working behind a bar, you know, delivering the bloody food in the press office. Old Trafford cricket. So did anything to just, you know, make some money in that short term. But then I got a job as a government economist in Whitehall. So I moved to London, which I said, I’ll give myself three years. I’m a northerner.
I’m going back north. After three years, of course, I ended up living London, but I whilst I was a great first job, I knew the civil service wasn’t for me. So I actually then got into the travel industry and I took a backward step because I’ve been working for a couple of years, but I actually managed to get on to the graduate training scheme at a holiday company called Thomson Holidays, which back then was the market leader.
And really, that’s where I kind of started from the bottom right away up to becoming the CEO of the travel division for saga, which is a 4250, and I was the managing director of the emerging markets for Tui. So very much lived experience starting from the bottom and working up. But yeah, taking a little bit of a few sideways steps, a few backward steps along the way and that’s kind of how I got into business.
So travel, tourism, hospitality being being the sector I spend most of the time that’s some pretty big steps, isn’t it, to to go and be managing director of, you know, emerging markets and working your way up and saga very much the what’s that over 60s type holidays? Yeah. Well, yeah, it was over 50 originally, but now I’m 54.
I’m like going, oh my god. But yeah, you know, the average age of a saga Holidays customer was 72. Oh is it really. Well yes. It was a lot older. So an older demographic. But saga was what you’d call a lifestyle brand really, because they had the travel division, which I was responsible for. But you also had insurance, you had retirement villages, etc. so the idea being for that demographic that the business will be able to, you know, serve all of those needs really.
But yeah, a very, very different business, very different brands. Yeah. But you know, a good experience. And then after there I sort of made my entrepreneurial jump if you like, after that. Yeah. How did you work your way up. How do you go from, you know, just getting into, into that travel job to being a managing director? Like, what was that journey like?
Like clawing your way up to the top? Yeah. I mean, it was interesting because it was a lot of fun. I would say, you know, I found an industry where I felt I belonged, you know, and I didn’t belong in the government economic service. It was a great first job, but I just knew it wasn’t for me. It wasn’t fast paced enough, you know, it was a bit too sleepy.
You know, the gray suits and cardigans of the Civil Service weren’t for me. You can see my yellow dress today. And brand, as we said earlier, very much brand with your brand. Absolutely. So I think the first thing was find something that you love or find an industry or a sector, you know, whether you’re an entrepreneur or whether you’re in the corporate world, find something where you’re going to feel like you’re fit and you can make a difference.
Why do you think you fit in the travel? What was the thing about that for you? Well, I think, I mean, I love traveling, right? So that’s that’s the kind of thing I’m naturally curious about different cultures and and wanting to have an immersive experience in different parts of the world, which obviously the industry gave me. It was really hard nosed commercially.
And it’s interesting because people think of holidays, you know, it’s just, you know, you’re just sending people on lovely holidays, right? But the reality is the margins are incredibly thin. So if you’re a travel business, you know, your EBITDA, your profit would be 5% of your revenue. It’s a very, very low margin business and people don’t see that.
It’s prone to global shocks, exchange rates, currency fluctuation or your competition. Huge, right? Massive competition. Ash cloud 911 Covid, you name it. It’s a very very tough industry to be in. So on the surface it’s all happy clapping about holidays. But actually it was such a great kind of learning ground for me in terms of the real commerciality of a business.
So yeah, I just worked really hard. I was passionate, I kept my hand up, you know, to volunteer for stuff. And yeah, I just had a good fun time. But I worked really, really hard. Ridiculous hours. And the industry, I mean, you wouldn’t get away with it now. You genuinely wouldn’t. I mean, you’d be sitting there at 2:00 in the morning, you know, pricing holidays, as you used to do when there were brochures and stuff.
And all this is pre-internet, of course, right back in the day. So, yeah, but fun and hard work. Yeah. I really do think that the tighter margin businesses are really good learning centers. You know, my first business was in automotive, and if you do 5%, you got like a very good, very good net profit to be getting to to that kind of level, most around 3%.
But it really does teach you a lot about margins and, you know, being being strategic with that. So I can imagine that was really powerful. I’ve also trained a lot of travel businesses, and I always remember one of my very good clients after I saw him after Covid and when. How are you doing? And, you know, the funny thing is he’s very upbeat and smiley, a bit like yourself.
And he went, I’ve just given 1 million pounds in refunds. Oh, it’s okay though. And, you know, it was just like he was absolutely distraught, I think. And it’s an interesting business because people do seem to be pretty jolly in that business. Right. So so what happened then? So you you got to this huge level in corporate. Was there a turning point?
I see a lot of people come to our vents that work in corporate companies. And you just mentioned the hours. They’re a little bit and they’re slugging it out there really working very, very, very hard. But there comes usually a point where they either want some freedom, they want some time back, they want to be in control of their own destiny.
Was that what it was like for you to kind of step out? What happened there? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I was never one of those that didn’t enjoy my corporate career. I’m incredibly proud of the businesses I’ve led, the teams that I, you know, and the brands and, you know, I mean, I was doing business in China and India.
I did, you know, went into Russia in Ukraine and did three acquisitions. I mean, all this stuff that I never would have even dreamed I was capable. It’s great to be a part of that, right? Yeah. And I mean, absolutely wonderful. And I felt very proud, you know, of whatever. And I hadn’t got it. All right. You know, I’ve had promotions I didn’t get, I’ve had not backs, you know, you name it.
But I think I got to a point where my husband’s ten years older than me. Not that that matters, but we were at stage of life. We don’t have kids. We chose not to have children. But we were at a point where we said, well, what do we want the next phase of our life to look like?
And I was probably then I’d be quite young. I was probably about 48. I’m 54 now, but 48, something like that. So Chris was 58. And as I say, he’s not some old fart or anything full of energy and what have you. But nonetheless, I think when you get to your later 40s 50s you, you do look at time differently and you do look at experiences differently.
So what we said, well, we want to be able to have more freedom, choice, flexibility. And I want to do cool business stuff with people that I respect and like. And I know that I can, can make a difference. And I just want to be able to do things in more, in a less structured way, shall we say that and corporate and just be a little bit more opportunistic and see what’s out there, see what I’m capable of outside of the corporate boardroom, because I know I can.
You know, I used to stand in front of the city with the analysts and present the annual results, you know, and I was very comfortable in that world, even though it was very, very high pressure. I knew what I was, and I used to always tell myself, I’m not entrepreneurial. I’m a great corporate CEO. That’s what I do, and that’s what I’m known for in the travel industry.
But I also want as well as wanting the sort of the lifestyle and more freedom, choice, flexibility. I also wanted to, I guess, prove to myself that I was a well-rounded businesswoman and I wasn’t just sector specific, you know, so I love people and passionate about business. And I think, you know, I really wanted to sort of go on that journey and see where it might lead.
So, yeah, bit of a bit of a sort of life changes and different stuff going on. Yeah, yeah. What you said that you, you’re a great corporate CEO. So it’s interesting that was your identity that you had at that time. What made you what is the make up of a great CEO for you? Well, for me it’s about having the the vision, you know, the vision of of where you’re going.
Why you exist and being able to bring people with you, you know, a great CEO, you know, doesn’t manage. They lead, they inspire others. They make the big decisions. Because ultimately, you know, it’s high risk big numbers in these situations. But you do it in a way that allows you to bring people on the journey to, to manage risk in the right way.
But to be for me, it’s about being human as well, you know? And I think in the old world of corporate, it, you know, you almost put on your uniform, you know, it was almost a perceived way to behave and to come across. And, you know, when I got my first director position, I was the only woman in the boardroom with a full PNL.
You know, it was a very different time and it was quite tough. But I used to always think, well, if I go into the situation thinking, there’s going to be a problem, then there probably will be. So I’ve just got to do the best I can, say what I’m going to do, do it. Treat people fairly and honestly.
Don’t become too egotistical and big headed about, you know, your position because that’s what you do. It’s not who you are. And I think great CEOs inspire others to be the best version of themselves, but provides that sort of roadmap, if you like, and that excitement and passion around why we exist as a team. How did you do that?
Inspire others? What was your did you have a a way of leading? Or when you talk about leadership because you’ve got a lot of experience in leadership, I’m sure we’ll get to that as well, even more. But what did you how did you know you were inspiring others and what did you do to drive them? Well, I think because I’d worked from the bottom up.
Yeah. It helped. Yeah. You know, because, you know, I know what it’s like to be a rep in uniform. I know what it’s like to do the night transfer when you’ve got the Glasgow flight coming in, you know, at two in the morning, you know, I would always be able to know what it was like to yield, manage a program or to go and negotiate with a hotelier on the race, you know.
So I think because I’d, I’d started at the bottom and I had worked my way up not perfectly by any stretch, but I think that gave more credibility in a way that if you’ve just been parachuted in. Yeah. And then I just think be kind and humor, you know, because time is times are tough in business, right?
And it can get very heavy, can’t it? Very heavy. Especially when you know, you’re, you know, backs against the wall. The numbers aren’t coming in. The trading is not good. You’ve got like, you know, a bunch of I don’t know, costs in the business that needs to be dealt with. You’ve got to restructure again, mow the lawn. As my boss used to say, we need to mow the lawn again.
You know, you say mow the lawn and say, how much this time, Dermot? Blast. And it was a great bottom line, I’d say. How much this time? Domain? 20%. And then I’d have to go away and figure out where I was going to take 20% out of the overhead, you know. So it’s a ruthless. How often did you know the lawn?
Yeah, it wasn’t exactly every year, but it could be every couple of years. Really. Most definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because. Because. Do you ever mow the lawn too much? I think there is a danger of doing that. Yeah. Sometimes when you take too much cost out, you know you can. But when you’re a listed business, you’ve got to remember everything plays out to the city and its share price.
So it’s very different than when you’re an owner and own founder business, because you don’t have to declare anything really, apart from what you have to submit to a company’s house. Yeah. So yes, sometimes you have to take quite a, a radical approach. But I always say, even if you’re getting rid of people and you’re having to say farewell, do it in the in the kindest way possible.
Be straight. Be as generous as you can within the circumstances, both in terms of sending people off in the right way, financial, whatever you can do. But you do have to do what you have to do and that, you know, being a CEO, being a boss, it does involve making those horrible choices and you never feel good about it, ever.
You know, I used to hate having to have those conversations I felt at every single time. But I would always think, well, if I was on the other side of the table. How would I want to be treated? And try and keep it as human to human as possible. So yeah, it’s tough, isn’t it? It’s ruthless in business sometimes.
And you know, you have to make those tough calls. As awful as they are, it has to be done. Otherwise the business won’t survive. And, you know, we’ve seen lots of failures, especially in the travel industry. I was a travel. Yeah. I mean, Thomas Cook went under for a whole bunch of reasons, which I won’t. Well, I can talk about, but I went there was a lot of things that went on.
But yeah. So it was interesting. But I think to your point, in a low margin business, there’s there’s very little odd all times on God, all times it’s very little between huge success and huge failure, because you haven’t got a few few sentences to work with. In terms of those lessons. As a I’m quite interested to, to understand, I put it way back still in the current timeline.
Yeah. What did the economics degree do for you? Did you use that economics degree within as a CEO? Have you used it as a small business owner into a medium business owner as it come back for you, or was it how useful was that to you? Well, I think I have because I did economics, but I also did management studies with it.
So it was a sort of a quite a powerful combination and I didn’t I knew I wanted to go into business. Right. That was sort of my thing, but I didn’t really know where or how or anything. And I just liked economics. I had a great teacher that inspired me. But yeah, so I have used it because if you think about, you know, price elasticity of demand, you know, how much can you charge for a certain product?
That’s economics. If you look at, oh, well, what’s the interest I’m paying on my mortgage. That’s economics, you know. So actually when you boil it down to basic supply and demand, that’s economics. I was gonna say, what’s the biggest lesson that you learn from economics that you brought into business? I think it was about the practical application and the commerciality of it.
You know, supply, demand, pricing, all of those basic yield management, you know, if you’ve got to fill seats on an aircraft, you know, if that seat goes empty, you know, sometimes it’s a contribution to the fixed cost. So, you know, I think it’s concerned quite grand economics. But you know, economics is managing your household budget. Yeah. You know how much you’re spending on food each week.
What’s your electricity bill. So I think for me it’s been around taking the kind of the concepts, if you like, and actually applying it in a relevant way. It’s interesting because you talked a lot about being human, but the economics, does that ever take the human aspect out of it? Because it’s it’s almost so black and white. Well, I think this is where you’ve got to be able to, to balance everything.
Having you as a business leader, you’ve got to be able to be all over your numbers. You have to be able to have a, you know, a strong vision and to be a marketeer and a product or brand person. But you have to remember, and especially in the travel industry, it’s very, very relationship based, you know, not only because it’s it’s it’s a service.
It’s a service led industry. So you’re always leading with service, you know, and the people in a business, you know, and you know, it’s not you can’t define you. Shouldn’t you find your people as an asset. But they are your strongest asset if they could be defined as an asset. And I think the the moment you lose touch of that is the dangerous place to be as a leader, because people say, oh, it’s not personal, it’s only business.
I mean, complete nonsense. It is personal. Business is personal. That’s the whole point. You know, it’s about relationships, isn’t it? About networks. It’s about your team. And so so I think, you know, if you’re the kind of person that’s just going to look at the numbers and not have the human aspect to CFO, I don’t think. Yeah, not the CEO.
Yeah. Yeah, it can be sometimes. Yeah. But then, you know, you’re one you’re going to miss out. You know yourself in the experience you have in the business you’re in. But two I just don’t think you’re going to get the best results either you know. So you’ve got to keep it real. Yeah. So tell us about about leadership.
So you go on to start the the business. So yes. Tell us about the starting of the business. What happened. Give us a bit about that and we’ll jump in. Yeah. So so it kind of evolved in all in all honesty Adam, because when I came out of corporate, the next natural thing for me to do would have been to go and do another C, because you still have it in the back of your mind, or, you know, if another great offer comes along, well, like, you know, you’re going to look at it, right?
Of course you are. And what ended up happening? I’ve done lots of mergers and acquisitions when I was at Tui, in particular, when I was the MD of the emerging markets, were buying and selling businesses all over the world. And so I had that M&A background just from from having been self-taught really to a certain degree in the corporate.
So I was well connected with private equity. So what started happening was that I was getting approach to do advisory work on deals. So, you know, a private equity house, which, you know, is a business that raises a fund. They normally invest in other businesses with a view to turn them around in 3 or 4 years time and making a profit.
So what they what private equity houses are normally greater is finance and investing, but they’re not sector specialists. So I was getting approach to say, oh well will you advise us on this deal. Is this a good or bad business. Where’s the risk. Where’s the opportunity. How much is this business worth. Or within the travel space. So that just happened organically.
So I started doing that. And then Covid hit, Covid hit and I was working on three businesses buying three businesses, two for a corporate and one for a PE house. They disappeared overnight. So all of a sudden we’d gone from, you know, big corporate world. Both my husband and I, starting out on this sort of entrepreneurial journey, disappeared overnight.
Zero income. Okay. Now we’ve got properties and we had a property business, so we weren’t on the breadline. I’m not saying woe is us, but it was a very different place to be from a cashflow perspective. Yeah of course. So so then I, you know, I was I was mentoring people, you know, to help them join difficult times, etc..
So the mentoring started growing our property business, you know, we were doing some things there, which was quite interesting with the assets. And we would be mentored by Rob Moore and Mark Homer at the time, who are the or the founders of progressive property, but also disruptive media. And Rob said you should start a podcast. And so then I said, okay, well what’s a podcast?
So I started the podcast because I had more time. Yeah. And, and we said, what was the name of the podcast or brave? And I had a mug, a mug that I used to drink my tea out of this other business started. I had a mug, and on the mug that my husband had bought me was bold, brave, amazing.
Be bold. Brave. Amazing. I quite like the bold and the brave, but I think it needs to be the other order and we really need another be. And this is all really how we got to live our lives, isn’t it? Being brave and bold and brilliant. So that’s where it started as the name of the podcast. And then everyone loved it.
So then we said, okay, right with the clients that we have, we had Virgin Atlantic, we had a core hotels, and we were doing lots of really cool stuff with leadership teams. Yeah. So actually we said, right, this is the brand. People love it, and this is the ecosystem that we have now created with how we help people.
And we do two things really, we do business strategy and we do leadership development. And we help businesses, CEOs, leaders step up to the next level of growth. But it didn’t start that way. You know, it started a bit squiggly. Yeah. You know, but it always does isn’t it. Right. But that’s the thing is you know it’s never a never a straight line.
Yeah. But interesting. So the podcasting what tell me. We’ll jump into some leadership lessons in which will be really helpful for a lot of people that are listening. Tell me about the podcasting. How helpful has that been for you? What’s your experience? You didn’t know what podcasting is. You get recommended. Go and start a podcast. You do it.
You’re done. 600 episodes now. You’ve been doing two a week. You’ve given it your all. You definitely you’ve got the vibe for it. There’s no doubt you’ve got the energy for it. What’s it brought you? What’s it been like? Tell me all about what podcasting done for you. Well, you know what? It’s it’s it’s it’s it’s so much more than what I ever thought it was going to be.
You know, I kind of started thinking, well, I get to help people first and foremost. That was why I started it, because I thought, you know what? People need a bit of guidance, a bit of support. We can learn from each other. You know, if I get to chance to have some interesting conversations on a platform that I wouldn’t normally have and be able to put out to the world, then that’s a good thing, right?
So all of that has been way away and beyond. But for me personally, what it’s done, it’s it’s given me access to me. Really interesting business people in multiple sectors that I would never normally have the opportunity. Amazing for relationship building. Absolutely. And because I love business and I love people, I’m genuinely interested. I really want to hear their story.
You know, like obviously, you know, we did an interview with you on and I learned so much. I loved it and you gave brilliant advice. So that’s the first thing. Have meaningful conversations with people that are going to that’s going to help people listening, right. Big tech. But the second thing is I think those relationships have actually led to significant business opportunities where I’m able to work with someone, you know, they say, oh, right.
Oh, God, I’m thinking of selling my business. Would you mind giving us some advice or oh my gosh, my team really need to step up to become a high performing team. Can you help us? And of course, that’s a beautiful, organic way of doing business because it’s through shared values trust, integrity. Absolutely. All of which is really important to me, you know, and I’m at a stage in my life where, you know, I don’t have to, you know, I don’t have to do this stuff.
I choose to to do what I do. And that’s wonderful. And the team that we’ve got around us, we’re a small team, but we were all really passionate about what we’re doing. But the podcast has opened all those doors. Yeah. And you never know. You never know what’s going to come from that conversation. Yeah. I’ve found some amazing relationships, a very similar.
I’ve been podcasting since 2018. We’ve done near 500 episodes. I’ve not been I haven’t done to a week. That’s that’s good going. That is good effort. It’s good going. You got to have the time, got to invest the time you to to be able to do it. But I met amazing people, done amazing deals, open doors, learned, you know, lots of relationships.
It’s incredible. I just think it’s an easy thing for a lot of people that listen. I always think when I’m when I’m recording for mine’s always think about the business owners that list in and I’m just like, that is an easy way, especially to go and get people on. So for example, if you go and interview all the, you know, the, the you said Footsie 250 leaders and you’re able to get on your podcast now you’re in front of everyone that could potentially have the leadership training you want, right?
Yeah. It’s just such a simple strategy. And the thing is leaders are busy. They don’t want to come and, you know, like sit down for a sales meeting, but they’ll sit down for a podcast, you know, and I think it’s a it’s a smart strategy. It works really well. While on leadership. Talk to me about leadership. It’s such a expansive topic that there’s different opinions.
But tell me from what’s your philosophy around leadership? I think, well, my philosophy about leadership is, you know, you need to lead by example first. First and foremost, I think that’s really important. And that doesn’t mean to say you’ve done every single job, by the way. But I think the way you behave, the way you carry yourself, your values, you can’t be expecting something of your team that you that you don’t live and breathe yourself.
So I think leadership is a position of responsibility. It’s a position of trust. And I think integrity is absolutely critical, you know, and the human to human. So I think a strong leader inspires, you know, because they’ve got that bigger picture thinking as well. So you need to be able I would say like as a leader, I think you need to be like a helicopter.
And by that I mean, you know, you need to be hovering above, looking out at the horizon. The bigger picture, the vision, the strategy, observing what’s going on around, maybe doing the big deals. But then you need to know when to land. And because sometimes there may be an opportunity in the business, it requires more attention, or there might be a problem that’s happened, or you might have a, you know, a literally a life and death situation that you need to land, get involved, do what’s needed to support the team, but most importantly, learn how to take no when to take off again.
And that doesn’t mean to say not being available. But this constant adjustment is what I think true leadership is about. But doing it with heart, passion, integrity because you care. And I’ve always said I’d never ask any. I’d never ask anything of anyone on my team, ever. In the big teams have run in the smaller teams I’ve run that either I haven’t done myself or I’m not prepared or I’m prepared to not prepared to do.
And that’s kind of hold me, hold me in good stead in a way. So for me, leadership is about the inspiring piece that the juxtaposition, and it’s about holding a hand down for the next generation and pulling them up with you. You know, you need to, you need to to rise as you climb. Yeah. You know, and the best leaders, the best leaders.
You recruit people that are smarter than yourself. You know, you give people the opportunities, effective delegation, you know, really, really creating amazing opportunities for people and giving them the tools and the freedom to do their job. Be there to catch them when they fall because they will do. And that’s normal. But actually in a way where people can can grow.
That is very different to managing, for sure. And since you’ve been you’ve obviously been. How many employees do you have when you’re running CEO roles? Oh gosh. Most you had 1000 tons of so tens of thousands at one point. And now you’ve got your own small business, right? Yeah, yeah. So how is your opinion? It’s quite a different question.
Yeah, yeah. How has your opinion on leadership changed from thousands to small small group. Yeah. And it is it is different I think the the principles are still the same in terms of the authenticity and the values and stuff. But in a small business you’ve got to be prepared. You’re landing a lot more. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah. You’re struggling to get off the ground. Yeah. You’re landing a lot more and you’re having to roll your sleeves up a lot more, you know. And I think as for any building the helicopter. Yeah, exactly. You know, and you’re often sort of refueling mid-flight. Right. You know, to a certain degree. So I think the big difference when I made the jump to be come in, you know, sort of business owner and an entrepreneur is all of a sudden you realize it’s you, your reputation.
Yeah. Your laptop and your phone. Yeah. You know, and in those early days when you’re just starting out and I was doing the advisory work and then I’ve built the business, you know, and but and it is it can be really loved. How did you feel? I think it should be interesting for someone that’s been in a position where I got, you know, 10,000 employees to now they’re a one woman, one one man army.
Yeah. What? How did how did that feel to you? Did it? Did you go take a bit of a hit or anything like that? No, I wouldn’t say my ego took a hit, but I just had to. I had to adapt. And did you think, what am I doing? Well, sometimes. Yes. Yeah. A lot of days I thought, oh my God.
Because and also here’s the other thing. You see, I could easily have gone back and got another corporate job. Yeah, right. I’ve not been arrogant saying that. And I’m a very humble person, but I could have done I could have gone back into corporate, but why didn’t I? So yeah, that’s why I like the obviously you found something quite fulfilling in, in being that business owner, which is awesome.
Yeah. I just I just think it’s difficult, isn’t it? I think that a lot of people we train. So as I said every time asking the questions, I’m just looking at the business owners and listening. And there’s a load of them that would have been in corporate roles. They get great significance, have been successful, earned a lot of money, and they step out and they start running a business.
And often it can feel like you’re stepping back. Yeah, absolutely. Because you are. You mean you’re a cleaner? You’re the chief bottle washer. You know, you’re the CFO, you’re the marketing manager. You’re all of these things, right? You’re the CEO, you’re all these things. So I mean, talk about, you know, you talk about double hats. You know, you’re probably a hundred hat in at sometimes, you know, feels like it.
So so I think it is hard. And when you’ve had a big brand behind you. Yeah. It opens opens a lot of doors, will open doors. You’re going to go and you’re going to go a deal with, with a big hotel group and you’re coming from Tui. You’re going to get the meeting. Yeah. Regardless of who you are.
Right. Because of your position and because of the brand. And this is this is the big thing for someone that’s thinking about, do I quit my job and become my own boss? And you need to be prepared for that. Yeah. And this is where reputation is everything. So, you know, I’ve always been very conscious and tried to keep humble because I do come from very humble background.
I’ve never tried to get to to big for my boots and when, when I was in those big roles, because your identity can very easily get wrapped into that. And all of a sudden when that’s taken away and I see it with people that I work with, 1 to 1, you know, in the executive world, they’re lost. Yeah, absolutely lost when they come out because and either it’s out of choice or maybe it’s a change a lot actually as well.
Yeah. You see and the other thing I’d say, so I think you’ve got to really have been pay attention to your reputation all through, all through your corporate career. Because if you do decide to come out, it should be important anyway. But it’s even more important when you when you’re, when you’re on your own, because that’s when you really realize how good you are or not and what your reputation is.
But I would say that where I used to tell myself, and there’s a point here about the inner dialog Gremlin. Yeah, I saw I’m a great corporate CEO. I’m not an entrepreneur. You say I’m not. I’m not entrepreneurial. It’s absolute rubbish. I’m incredibly entrepreneurial, but I just wasn’t in that environment in the same way. And actually, even in the big corporate, I was always doing turn around internationalization, go and buy that business.
So actually, even with a corporate, I probably was more entrepreneur than I gave myself credit for. And so I think you’ve got to think of the dialog. But the other thing I would say it’s not for everyone. Yeah. You know, being a business owner, being, you know, being your own boss, it isn’t for everyone. And that’s all right.
And it’s okay. But if you’ve got if you want to give it a go, better to try and find out than to not try. And you might show up for all the time. Yeah. And you might find, you know, actually. Yeah. You, you know, the business was more successful than you thought you might find. It wasn’t. And you might think, well, I’ve learned a lot.
I can go again now or you might go, you know what? Actually, I do need a bit more certainty in my life. I like being on the payroll. Nothing wrong with that. So I think sometimes entrepreneurial ism is glamorized. I definitely think that. I think I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a a brilliant job. I think, I think if you enjoy it, I think a brilliant job can give you this is the opposite of what I’m promoting.
But I just think for balance, I think it’s good to have a balance is the, you know, a brilliant job will like will give you opportunities and doors and openings and probably a little bit more of a relaxed lifestyle. It just depends. Are you that person that wants to are you a creator? Really? You talk about entrepreneur, but are you a creator?
I know you’re a risk taker. Yeah, because I have to create. I can’t I can’t not create. You know, for me, it’s got to be about creation. And I think that’s very, very important. So I’d love to. I’d love to hear a little bit more on the leadership. Right. So I read a really cool book many years ago.
I don’t even familiar with it. I probably probably are, because if you’re a bit of a leadership, you know, that’s your that’s your line. You might have heard of it. Of the 21 Laws of Irrefutable Leadership, if you’ve ever read that, I haven’t read that one very good book, very good book, and just got me to John Maxwell, I think I thought it was a good book.
I read it a time I definitely struggled coming into leadership as a small business owner, because I am someone that is of execution, like I’m an execution person. I get stuff done like that. That’s like my superpower is focus execution. So then leading and being patient and waiting for everybody else to execute and get stuff done can be quite difficult.
So I had to work on this because I sucked it, frankly, you know, and that was when I, I went on a binge of consuming a lot of leadership material, training, coaching in those different areas to get better. So I’m really interested here. If you were listening to someone, you were talking to someone that’s running their business that maybe he’s got a team, got some employees.
They struggle with being a leader there. They don’t really understand it. You know, they’re they’re not maximizing the performance of their team. They’re probably doing a lot of the work themselves there, you know, don’t even understand. Wouldn’t even know where to start. What would you say to them to guide them, to go from being just a person that does everything to being the leader of a great team?
Yeah, it’s a great question actually. And, you know, I think there’s a bit of an old adage around wrapping your head around the concept of you’ve got to let go to grow. Yeah. Because you will become the blocker in the business. Your business will stagnate if you continue with that. But what I would but it is it’s all well and good to say that, but it’s very different in reality, isn’t it?
So the what I would advise is really hone in on what you’re good at and what you enjoy. So if you’re a brilliant sales person and you enjoy it, okay, you’re still probably going to have a natural lean towards that, which is not a bad thing. So when you’re starting to think about how do I start to effectively delegate, let go of some stuff, probably the easiest thing is to start to let go of the things that you’re not very good at and you don’t like, because emotion, it will be a less of a wrench for you, right?
So then have brilliant people that do that for start, but start small. Start with the admin stuff, start with, you know, that kind of thing. Because once you see that that is running smoothly without you in it, baby steps, then you’re going to have the confidence in your head. Sako. That’s working quite well. All right. Learning isn’t it.
Teaching yourself to like. Oh so I think so. And don’t beat yourself up about it. But you have to acknowledge it. Yeah. You know, do you want to be a business operator or do you want to be a business owner? And this is the whole helicopter analogy. And there’s nothing wrong with being a business operator, but you’re going to only get to a certain level, and you’re probably not going to grow as a person, as a leader either through that, because you’re going to be, you know, stuck in your lane.
Yeah. But I think start, start in those areas where you can get some comfort, get some traction, some positive momentum, and then you’ll actually naturally start to elevate yourself. But think about what are the think about what are the most valuable areas that you can contribute to the business, where you can make the biggest bang for your buck.
And quite frankly, if you had an hourly rate, right, if you were looking at how much you pay yourself or you don’t pay yourself in a business when you’re starting out. But if your hourly rate is, I don’t know, £100, then you should not be doing any task that you’re paying anyone for less than £100. Yeah. Why would you?
That is, you know, financially doesn’t make sense. I love the concept of getting people to let go of the things they hate because actually it’s much, much easier to do that. And I think and I think that’s great advice. So for anyone that is listening and that applies to you, is go and make a list of the things you hate and then start letting them go one at a time because you’re going to get more freedom in your life.
What about the perfectionist that just can’t let well, say you’ve got an employee that just has to wants to take control of everything. They’re perfectionists. They don’t want to let go of anything. They they protect everything that they have and they don’t want to give up. And they’re very, very guarded and protective. All the stuff. You know, how often have you experienced that in your career?
Yeah, quite a lot. Quite a lot. And it’s normally come in from some deep down insecurity in themselves. It’s not normally about that. You know, it’s normally that they don’t feel their own self-worth necessarily or something’s going on. Berry often in their own head that they don’t feel quite good enough to or they’re trying to prove something. I’m trying to be a perfection.
I’ve got it, you know. I’ve got everything’s got to be. Well, perfection doesn’t exist. You know it doesn’t exist. Right? How would you guide someone like that to become more of a leader? Well, again, I think I think if you’ve got someone that’s like that and say they’re running a team again, same similar principle actually, where you say, okay, well, you know, you might you might think you’re an expert marketer, for example, but there would be elements, you know, not involved in marketing as we know.
You know, there’s SEO, there’s paid, there’s there’s brand, there’s, you know, all these different elements within marketing. So there will still be something where they can start to apply those principles of, you know, they don’t like this or they don’t or you’re not great at that, you’re not great at it. But I think they’re great. Everything. Well, then there needs to be a very real conversation.
And I think this again, as a leader, you know, giving constructive feedback to your team is so important because if you have someone like that on your team, you know, you need to be sitting down with them regularly, not once a year regularly and sort of saying, hey, how’s it going? And explaining that we’re on a growth path.
You know, we want you to elevate. You need to elevate. So you need to delegate because otherwise marketing is not going to get to the next level or whatever the function is. And so again, that involves having some quite brave conversations. And then sometimes you do get to the point where this person isn’t isn’t going to be part of the future.
You know, for the business, they might have been great at the beginning. And I think this is the other thing. When you see different stages of a business, I like giving you like little situational questions. It’s good because it brings it definitely brings out. And, you know, I’m sure that will help a lot of a lot of other people.
I’ve got another one for you. Ready for one? Yeah. Yes. Go for it. I’m all for it. Imagine that you’ve got a situation where you’ve got a high performer. Yeah, I think this is quite a common one. Right. Which I’m sure you’ve got a super high performance in, in a sales environment, either the top sales person, they’re crushing it.
They always crush it. They do really well. But they have a lot of dominance. Maybe some toxic habits tend to step on people, put people down, you know. What do you think of that kind of what’s your you must have experienced this type of individual, this character in your in your business career, right? Yes. I have a few times.
Yeah. What’s your, your, what’s your leadership strategies for dealing with high performers? Well, well high performer. Yeah, yeah. A high performance, a team player. It’s fantastic. We want more of them. Yeah. And they’re it’s about how do you expand their role? How do you create the next opportunity. Because if they’re ambitious and they’re fantastic and they’re doing well and they’re a team player, they’re going to leave.
Yeah. Right. So there’s a risk there. So so this is about succession planning. This is about development right. So so that’s a different a different approach to to high performer. Because I would argue that someone that’s a high performer that’s pissing everyone off around them, they might be delivering the numbers. But is that a definition of a hybrid former.
Probably not actually. So I think in that scenario, again, it comes down to coaching. I think, you know, you have to you have to be able to showcase why what they do is brilliant in this area, but actually the impact of their behavior or the way that they’re going about things has a damaging impact on the team. And, you know, you’ve got to look and a winning team wins together or not at all.
If you have a top sales person and they’re absolutely bringing the numbers in, but they’re they’re in isolation, that’s not a team that’s a high performing individual in one area that actually isn’t a high performance, and usually it’s suppressing other people’s. But the reason I ask the question is a lot of people that are on that are listening right now that run small businesses, and they probably get someone in their business.
They become dependent on that person, and you’re worried about letting them go that once. Yeah. The high performer or a protective person, you get these different types of people. I wonder if you ever if you’ve ever read the book Multipliers Leadership Book. That’s a great leadership book. I really quite enjoyed that actually. I thought that was so I actually, you know, you can probably tell really interesting the concept.
Yeah, it’s definitely something I personally have had to work on. Yeah. You know, because it’s you know, to, to, to grow, it’s very important. But I think this is just not just on, on, on the point about if you’ve got, you know, this is where as a leader of a business, you need to have that sort of longer term plan for where you’re heading.
Right? Because I always look at when I when we work with organizations, sometimes I do work with smaller businesses or mid-sized businesses that are kind of scared. And I always look at three phases of growth, you know, so I’m not talking necessarily from start up to scale, but wherever they are at the point of time that they’re actually looking at this and you might say, okay, well, I’ve got three phases of growth.
The first 12 months looks like this. And year two’s this year is straight. And some of that basic stuff, you know, is around what’s the vision, what’s the roadmap, what’s the strategy for the business and how you’re going to get there. And then you have to look at the team and also be always thinking about, okay, well how’s the team got to shape and grow.
And if you’ve got single points of failure in your business, which is what you’re describing or single points of success, but is also a single point of failure because there’s a risk with that person. If you’re aware of it, you need to start back. You need to start building some bandwidth behind that person, and that can take quite a long time so that, you know, if in the event you do need to have, you know, a difficult conversation with someone or they get poached or headhunted or whatever it might be, you’ve not left with a massive gap.
So I always look at succession plan and I said, okay, who would be the caretaker in the event someone is gone very suddenly, for whatever reason? Who’s going to step in and take that role, who’s the successor within a year and who’s the successor within two years. Now, in a small business, it’s very difficult because you might literally have five people in your business.
I think that’s a really good tip. Well, I think that’s really powerful for anyone that’s running a team. I think it’s great for me to to be, you know, is what I run. A team of my previous business had 120, my current business got 50. It’s still a lot of people, right? You know, not quite 10,000, but still 50 people look after, right?
Yeah. And I think if you run through that framework again for succession planning. Yeah. So, so I think, you know, when you’re looking at your team, first of all, I would map your talent. Yeah. Map your people on a nine box matrix. Yeah. And again you know what. Happy to give you some material you can maybe pass on to your community.
And that’s awesome. Yeah. But essentially on one one side you have performance. And then on the on the vertical axis you have potential and you have nine boxes. And you place your people in those nine boxes. You might not necessarily tell them, although if you do it in the right way you can where they are. So obviously your top, you know, high potential, high high performance, etc., but so you know where your people are sitting and then you’re able to say, okay, for each role, I’ve got one.
Where do they want, where do you want them to be? Where do they want to be? Do you need to be having some exit conversations? Did each person should have a development plan really, even in a small business? And that might be something very simple. It doesn’t have to be cost money either, by the way. And so you know where everyone is.
And then when it comes to succession planning, who’s the caretaker. So you have all your roles, you have your org chart, your family tree and reach role. You identify who would be the caretaker that would be able to step in for six months, no more than six months in the event of a situation happening. Illness, whatever. Someone’s taken out the business at short notice, who’s a successor within 12 months?
So who’s ready to be in that job in 12 months time and then in two years? So then what you’re doing, you’re actually looking at your talent and you’ll say you’re proactively developing them, but you’re also de-risking the business in the event that someone moves on. And also it forces you to deal with poor performers. Yeah. Which is hard.
You know, we’ve got to sometimes we’ve got to say farewell. Yeah. But if you leave those people in your business, they become toxic. And it’s a real problem. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Can be. Yeah. I think that’s that’s fascinating. And I think there’s some really, really great lessons. If you were speaking to a small business owner, somebody that’s listening right now, this early stages, and you had to give them a couple of pieces of ice.
On developing as a leader of their business maybe one or 2 or 3 points. What would you say to them? These are the these are the things that you should do to start to get better at leading, rather than doing everything yourself and start growing that business. What would you say to them? Yeah, so I think I think you asked me what my superpower was at the beginning and I said believe.
I think self-belief and working on yourself is absolutely critical, you know? So because I think sometimes business and business leaders get stuck, they think they’ve got to stay in a certain place or they get they get intimidated when with bigger businesses around them, etc.. So I think, you know, you’ve got to work on yourself every single day, whether it’s learning something new, whether it’s mindfulness, whether it’s physical exercise, taking care of your energy, it’s always got to be an inside job, right?
First, first and foremost, seriously. Because if you’re not in good shape, put your own. I also think that’s fantastic advice. Yeah. You know, because we’re so focused on everyone else. And very often everyone’s taking take and take in and you can feel exhausted and exploited and then you’re going to crash. And I’ve experienced this. So so I think you’ll take yourself believe in yourself but also look after yourself.
Secondly, it would be very careful who you’re surrounding yourself with. You know, the influences in your life. I was saying there are two types of people, you know, there are there are sappers and there is APAs. You never been in a room with someone and you just suck the oxygen out the air. You know, you don’t want to be around them people.
So be really conscious about who you have in your circle, both internally in the business, but also externally, because you want to be surrounding yourself with people that are two, three, four, five steps ahead of you. They’re going to inspire you, support you on your journey. So what’s your network? Yeah. And so I’d say work on yourself network and then have have a bloody plan.
Have a plan for the business. It doesn’t just have to be like a fancy PowerPoint presentation. Have a plan. It could be on a couple of pages or an Excel spreadsheet. But you’ve got to know what you stand for, why you exist. And I know this is something you’re passionate about. And actually, what are your numbers? Yeah, I see business people, business owners that don’t know their numbers.
Yeah, this is pretty basic. So I think about that. Some people don’t know the numbers. And then they go, like you said, I’m not good with numbers. Well it’s irrelevant whether you’re good numbers or not. You’ve got to know I’ve watched you have a business. Absolutely. I mean, it’s like not a valid excuse and it’s never acceptable, I think, for for someone to say I’m not good at numbers, you get good at numbers, you learn it.
It’s like it is business. There’s no point running a business unless you know your numbers 100%, 100. And you don’t have to be, you know, a top accountable even at a basic level, you know, and then, of course, you hire great people that will do as you grow. That can help you with that. But yeah, I think I think those are some of some of the things and you’ve got to really believe in yourself and really question why you’re doing it.
And does this fit in not just with the business but your wider life purpose? And maybe that’s probably the life of stage that I am saying that. But even when you’re younger, you know, what do you really want? Yeah. What are you doing this for? Is it for you? Is it for other people? Yeah. You know, because I think a lot of people do things because they think they should, or it’s what society expects or it’s what the parents wanted.
Be really, really honest with yourself because it’s not easy. So, you know, get clear. Yeah I love it. All right. So we have a couple of like quick fire rounds of what we do, which is questions for the podcast. I just got to say, first of all, I think you’ve been absolutely brilliant in his brilliant leadership lessons here for everyone.
The next questions are going to ask. Going to be in a fairly quick fire round. So you kind of answer these based on, you know, where where you where you’re at, what your instincts are. One of the things I explained to you is that we help business owners, our main aim for business owners, to help them to build a business model that runs successfully and profitably.
And it’s simple and it’s replicable so they can do the same thing over and over again with the main aim of the game is to not get them pulling all the levers, get them out so the business can actually run without you over a period of time. Now for every you got to build the business model. First, you got to refine it, then you’ve got to come out.
You know, that takes time for different people. And there are five pieces of that model. The first part of the model is having a strategy which we talked a little bit about. So we’ll go back there in a minute. It’s building a brand that resonates with people. It’s actually putting a marketing funnel in place to drive leads and inquiries into your business or traffic.
If you’re e-commerce, then having a sales process to convert the leads, and then having an operational process to deliver your products to service successfully where people really pleased with what they purchased and they got value. So we’re building a really sustainable business model. So what I’m going to ask you some tips on those if that’s okay. So the first one is what is your very best tip that you’ve got for building strategy for businesses.
Okay. So I would say have a plan and write it bloody down.
But be really clear on your why. Start with the why. Why you exist and and why should someone buy from you versus anyone else. Because when you when you’re clear on your why, that’s going to keep you true. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. What is your best branding advice that you would give people for building? I think you’ve done this really well with your podcast, for example.
It’s obviously intuitive that you came. I love the brand. Like you said, everybody seems to love that. So what would you say about branding building brand? What would it be? Good one for you? I think you want something that’s sticky, memorable and means something that’s going to provoke an emotion in people. And I would say, you can’t be all things to all people, so.
So don’t be afraid to niche down and be clear who you’re for and who you’re not for. And don’t be worried about that. Yeah, I think the sticky and the memorable bit is and means something that’s fantastic because a lot of people really struggle with that. But if you can get that across, that’s that’s awesome. In terms of you for marketing businesses, what should I want it for?
Marketing? Oh, well, it depends on the business, right? Of course it does. But I would say omnichannel, you know, omni distribution or, you know, not just one form of yeah, creating those leads. So in a travel business, as you know, it could be commerce. You know, it might be through retail back in the day. It may be, you know through corporates you know, so you’ve got multiple channels of distribution.
So that you’re not just relying on one source. Absolutely. Sales advice. What is your best advice for for people to increase their sales, believe in what you’re selling. And remember that selling is serving. Believe in what you’re selling. And how would you have them? Believe me more in what they’re selling. If somebody didn’t believe 100% in what they were offering, what would you going to do?
I’d say the offerings probably not. Right? Yeah, I think that’s really interesting because the reason I ask that question is I totally agree with you. And some people are like, oh, I think you got to improve the product if you don’t love it, you know, really important. Okay. And what’s the biggest operational lesson? You’ve had massive operational experience.
So from an operations perspective what would you what would you say. Some good suits for operations. We need to automate as much as you can. And it doesn’t mean that doesn’t mean necessary taking people out of the equation. But you need you need to automate. You need to have streamlined systems and processes. And I would say if you’ve never done that, map your existing processes, even if they’re all very manual, and then then look at where the customer touchpoints are and where there may be breakage or a lack of lack of a seamless customer experience and put it through the lens of the customer and then see where you need to adapt and change.
Always thinking about how can I automate? How can I make this repeatable? How can I make this scalable? Yeah, lovely. Love it. And our final question for today. So if you could appoint anybody as the CEO of brave. Oh very brilliant. If you could, if you could appoint anybody as the CEO of brave, bold, brilliant, anyone from history, anyone at all in your mind that could come into the business and they could be the CEO and they could run their business.
The last question of the day, who would it be and what would you expect him to do different to what you’ve done? Well, what a great question. My God. Well, I’m going to go for Branson because, you know, the ultimate entrepreneur. But and the reason why I think shared values and DNA. But actually he’s a master at starting businesses, closing them and having a whole portfolio that goes across multiple services that they offer.
And I think the I think brave Bob brilliant has got the stretch of that brand potential. And someone like Branson obviously is just a genius, right? So yeah, it’s probably it’s probably a bit of an obvious answer, but no, no go in Branson all the way. The last person acid didn’t say Branson. You know, they said Homer Simpson.
So I think I think I think you’ve probably got a better shot.
I think you got a better shot on this one. Pretty brilliant answer. I was on Necker Island with Branson October. He’s amazing. Okay. Brilliant stuff. Well, look, I’ve loved it. It’s been brilliant conversation. Thank you very much for coming on. I’ve really enjoyed it. And look, where can people follow you or get to know you if they, you know, they want to come and learn a little bit more about what you’re doing.
Yeah. So we’re all over social media. If you want to follow me, then it’s Jeanette with two ends and two tiers in. Jenette, Linford. Brave. Bold. Brilliant. Brave. Com. And you will find us there. So. Yes. Brilliant stuff everybody. And look. Just want to say a big, big thank you for watching the way that this podcast grows. If you’ve enjoyed the conversation and you’ve got loads out of it, please do go and give us a five star review on the platform of your choice.
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Thanks again for listening and watching, and I look forward to seeing you all very soon.